After early success left him feeling empty, Patrick Boland embarked on a deep journey through loss, spirituality, and mentorship to discover a more meaningful way of living and leading. This conversation explores the limits of achievement, the courage to walk the pathless path, and how to navigate uncertainty with presence and trust.
What happens when you do everything “right”… and still feel empty?
In this episode of The Deep Coach Podcast, I sit down with Patrick Boland—executive coach, author of The Contemplative Leader, and former high-achiever who hit a breaking point early in life.
At just 16, Patrick experienced a profound existential crisis. Despite excelling in academics, sports, and music, he found himself asking a deeper question:
“What is it all for?”
What followed was a journey through depression, spirituality, mentorship, and ultimately, a radical shift in how he relates to success, meaning, and leadership.
📝 Key Themes
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⏰ Timestamps
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🔗 Connect with Patrick Boland
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📖 Resources Mentioned
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Patrick Boland: [00:00:00] I cried out, I said, God, if you're real, like if there's anything to spirituality, I, I need help. I need you right now. I had this urge to open a Bible, which I was not ever familiar with, hadn't ever really read it. And I landed in the first page of Ecclesiastes in the Hebrew scriptures. And I read 12 chapters of my thoughts entirely, just written out, almost stuff that I could have written word for word. Meaningless. Everything is meaningless, like chasing the wind.
Jonathan Hermida: Patrick, it is such a pleasure to be here connected with you. I like to start at the point where that transformational journey started and, and perhaps just slightly before it really got ignited, who would you say Patrick was?
What were you experiencing prior to the onset of your own transformational journey?
Patrick Boland: I was experiencing deep pain, ton of pressure,
Jonathan Hermida: I.
Patrick Boland: pressure that then manifested as internal pressure. Um, [00:01:00] so I was a teenager at the time and I had been brought up in a way, particularly with my dad, where there was a huge amount of expectation on me to perform everything and excel at everything. And in many ways I had done. well according to that Success Playbook. I was unhappy within myself and deeply dissatisfied. And, um, like I'd gotten almost straight A's in my first state exams, the age of 14. And I thought, that about? I don't feel any better. I was doing my final grades in piano, hated it. Um, there was no beauty to the music for me. I was playing in the top soccer team in Ireland, playing in the Premier league for, um, school Boys. you know, scouts set our matches every week. And I just hated football. I got to the point where I wasn't [00:02:00] enjoying any of it. And, uh, yeah. Then, uh, I think the turning point for me was I thought, surely relationships are gonna be the thing.
Surely relationships are gonna be really. Really important. And that's eternal. That's gonna be really meaningful regardless. And I was really close to my nana, my grandmother, and she died around that time. And then I was going out with a girl and she cheated on me. by the time all of this stuff happened, I was like, what is it all about?
And I just took a big nose dive spiral down into, I need to find out what I'm doing. Um, because the life I had planned for myself isn't going the way I thought it was gonna go. And I wasn't getting picked on the schoolboy representative team, but I wanted to get picked on and that my coaches said I get picked on. Um, so yeah, it was a huge crisis of everything. Yeah. Physically, health-wise collapsed. I was sleeping 16 hours a day. I was just deeply depressed. [00:03:00] Um, so that started my search, my search for meaning. Um, that took a, a solid one year of deep, deep searching and philosophy and world religion and different practices.
And Buddhism, practicing Tai Chi, reading world philosophers, and then I had a very strange experience.
Jonathan Hermida: That we're gonna go into, so this was at 16 years. When your nana dies, your girlfriend cheats on you. You don't make the club team, and then you, you spiral and you start asking deeper questions.
Patrick Boland: Yeah. Yeah, pretty much.
Jonathan Hermida: W was there a particular book or resource that really stood out as a catalyst for you understanding either what was going on or supporting you on your journey at that moment in time?
Patrick Boland: There were a few things that led me deeper in to the despair. I remember, I remember I used to listen to a lot of Simon and Garfunkel
Jonathan Hermida: There you go.
Patrick Boland: at the time and I was
Jonathan Hermida: Sure.
Patrick Boland: of poetry myself. Um. [00:04:00] I remember listening to melancholy and the infinite sadness by smashing pumpkins. And that was, uh, that was, that was exactly what it said on the lid. Uh, but then I suppose the, the deep experience for me was I, I cried out, I said, God, if you're real, like if there's anything to spirituality, I, I need help. I need you right now. I had this urge to open a Bible, which I was not ever familiar with, hadn't ever really read it. And I landed in the first page of Ecclesiastes in the Hebrew scriptures. And I read 12 chapters of my thoughts entirely, just written out, almost stuff that I could have written word for word. Meaningless. Everything is meaningless, like chasing the wind. So it was a
Jonathan Hermida: Oh wow.
Patrick Boland: dive into existentialist philosophy um, yeah, a mixture of tears and laughter as I read through it and just deeply resonated.
So that was my entry point.
Jonathan Hermida: That was your entry point and what, and was that related to your spiritual experience?[00:05:00]
Patrick Boland: Yeah. Yeah, that was it. That, that, that was really it. I mean,
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: where I thought there's no point going on.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: if I just live the life that, uh, is mapped out for me. I had a, I recently met with the head of a big, um, global bank, and, uh, the chairman said, gimme a call. Do this course in college.
Gimme a call when you finish. Come to London, get on the trading floor. This is where you go. And I thought, do I want this? Do I wanna have these holidays, these things, know, in my mind I was looking around at friends of mine and, um, often partnerships and marriages didn't seem very meaningful. It was more like the trophy husband, the trophy wife. The kids just seemed like a, an accessory. Um, so I was just looking at all of this going, I don't want this for myself. Um, and it was obviously through very black and white concrete thinking as a teenager. So there was that element to it as well. And all the hormones of adolescents.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: But, uh. That was, that was kind of a [00:06:00] breakthrough there to kind of go, I, there's something else that I wanna pursue.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: There's something more, there's something more within me, and I wanna find out what that is.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah, there's something more. And I imagine also in reading those, those passages that the feeling of I'm not alone, that someone gets it. Right.
Patrick Boland: Incredible.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: incredible. I couldn't believe that this book was attributed to someone from 3000 years ago and had done it all. Had literally lived the life that I thought was gonna be satisfying
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: went through everything and deconstructed everything and said wealthy, was meaningless. I had all these sexual conquests, it was meaningless. built all these great, um, engineering works and they're gonna outlast me. What was the point? And just systematically goes through all of the, the typical upwardly mobile, um, you know, egocentric grand designs of the first half of life and went, and at the end of the day. It was a very simple conclusion.
It was like, essentially, [00:07:00] appreciate the moment. Live your life, honor God. Be satisfied with what you have. It's enough. I was blown away. I was like, really? your conclusion? Tell me more. I would've experienced this.
Jonathan Hermida: Tell me more. Let's find out. Let's find out.
Patrick Boland: Yeah,
Jonathan Hermida: So where did that thread start taking you then?
Patrick Boland: I spent a year at home still kind of moving through the depression, I, I spent a year, I started reading the, the New Testament gospels. I had been brought up Catholic, here in Ireland, and I didn't really get it. Um, really get like the church bit, the mass bit. Um, but though internally within myself and my spirit, I felt a deep resonance around the, the deepest sense of spirituality and, you know, connection to the cosmos, to the stars at night, to nature, to love, to loving relationships, to kindness to people.
So from that level, I got it, it just. It started to open up to me. So I read a lot of the parables, um, of Jesus. I was totally confused, but there was something about it that just resonated and I just went with [00:08:00] it. I started dabbling in prayer. I thought I was crazy.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: Um, I started writing things out.
Um, and then slowly but surely my perspective on life changed. Um, I stopped being massively negative, pessimistic. I started to develop a compassion for myself. Um, I started to develop more resilience over time, and that was about a year by myself, where this was a time when in, in school and secondary school, we call it, or high school. There were days when I wouldn't speak, I just wouldn't speak. I'd been so, so deeply depressed. Um. And then a couple of teachers picked up on some stuff. I had a chaplain in my school, a wonderful Jesuit priest, just really connected with me and answered my questions and was just a real support. He taught me the Enneagram at that point. So I was 17 when he taught me the Enneagram, and I was like, oh, okay. I was following the path of the three on the Enneagram, the achiever, thinking that if I was successful [00:09:00] enough that then I'd be worthwhile.
Jonathan Hermida: Hmm.
Patrick Boland: So that was really helpful. Um, that was the first psychometric I ever learned. Um, that was really, really helpful.
And then just, I really pursued mentors, so that was the path. I just sought out mentors for the next five years and I had five of them, and they were wonderful people.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah. How did your relationship to your dad and his desire for you to achieve that evolve during that time?
Patrick Boland: It was tough. Um. I am not sure if it evolved too much as a central relationship. I think my perception of it evolved and my attitude towards it evolved. I kind of,
Jonathan Hermida: I.
Patrick Boland: you know, I, I made all the appeals that a young man makes to his father to please see me, please understand me, please support me in this stuff. Uh, he was not happy when he saw me, [00:10:00] um, reading the Bible.
So things like that was, that was, that was not cool for him at all. so it was, I suppose I became more patient with him. I tried to understand where he was coming from, what life circumstances had shaped his, um, views, his perspectives, his approach to being a father. And I probably tried to make many points of connection, uh, with him around. Yeah. Let's see. Can we understand each other a bit more? Um. I wouldn't say much if any of that worked, but, um, it shaped me. It changed me and my capacity to be a bit more patient. Um, and then to just get space, I, I started doing therapy in 19 and started understanding boundaries, I had not understood before. Um, so as I read lots and lots, psychology, psychotherapy, applied spirituality, I started to slowly but surely [00:11:00] understand things like family constellations and dynamics and taking responsibility for self and having compassion on self. And, um, that all these spiritual things are not these externalized ideas in the world around us, but they really start within ourselves and in the relationships we have with others and the intimate relationships we have and our capacity to be appropriately assertive and boundaried and to say no.
So it was a deep dive and a lot of slow learning for me in trial and error. Um. But, uh, yeah, not too much of it changed in the relationship, I'd say, apart from I became more understanding, more patient, and then I separated myself out over time.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah. Yeah. Tell me more about these mentors. Where, what fields were they in and, and what did you learn from them?
Patrick Boland: So they were actually all some form of, uh, spiritual teacher or pastor or something like that. They were, I had, I'd had my heart [00:12:00] broken and I had been in a, in an environment that was highly competitive, uh, in high school. So secondary school from like kind of 12 to 18. I was just seeking out people who were just heart connected, who were patient, were open, uh, who were intellectually intelligent, who'd done their work spiritually, theologically, um, and also emotionally. So, um, yeah, with different ones, some of them are really into theology and we just read. Theology together and opposing theologians and I debate and discuss and ask questions. And some of them in the end weren't very happy when I had different perspectives to them. But, which to me was a big insight into the nature of mentorship because my, my chaplain father Frank from my secondary school, he didn't care where I went or what I thought.
He was just there for me. He had no agenda for me to change. That was beautiful and amazing. Um, some of the others did, and that's, that's fine. Like no one's perfect. [00:13:00] so yeah, there was a lot of that. Some of them were very emotionally aware, very psychologically aware. some of them were good fun. Some of them I went and worked with kids, street, kids with them and overseas and went to developing countries.
Um, yeah, just people who I really respected, who are respected, their attitude to life, uh, their decisions, their relationships, and the direction in which they were seeking to go.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah. Yeah. You're a big proponent of mentors and mentorship. You write about it. You had a TEDx talk on it. What, what is it about mentorship that you find so valuable and important for somebody's journey?
Patrick Boland: Well, I didn't have a grownup, so I didn't know how to
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: being a boy into an adolescent, into being a man. And I think that's the case for many young men. It does. It's not confined to, to the male of the species. I think it [00:14:00] applies to everybody. Um, but I know from my own firsthand experience, the confusion that comes up when you don't have a, kind of a blueprint or an understanding or a pathway of knowing who am I and how do I, uh, have a, a healthy. Ego formation in the early years of life. Um, and, and who do I allow to shape it? 'cause if we don't choose who to shape it, if we're not fortunate enough to be in systems that naturally shape it in healthy ways, we'll so easily be brought into, you know, free young men, the manosphere these days, or just, you know, traditionally gang violence or anything, you know, becoming, um, violent, um, or it might not be physically violent, but emotionally violent or spiritually violent or whatever it is, relationally violent. so I think it's crucial that, you know, the way we mature, that we understand [00:15:00] where's the line, what's appropriate, what's helpful, where are the boundaries that are going to give us more freedom? I always say to clients, um, boundaries give us loads of freedom. We don't have boundaries. We don't know where to go.
We don't know what to do. We, we try here, we try there, we kick against the goads, we, we do all this kind of stuff. Um, having a wise mentor, having a, an actual mentor, not someone who's trying to shape you into their agenda or manipulate you, but someone who's there for you and who understands how to listen and how to be present and how to meet you, where you're at. But then when required, can answer direct questions, give direct answers, share from their experience without trying to superimpose it onto you. That's beautiful. So powerful. That,
Jonathan Hermida: It is so powerful. Yeah. It supercharges, it has the potential to supercharge somebody's journey where somebody doesn't have to go through the pitfalls. They can learn from somebody else's experiences, you know? And, and not [00:16:00] everybody, you know, people listening might be like, you know, who's a mentor? Who can I access?
And I, I found from my own life, I've had to direct mentorship from an actual person that I speak with, but also I've sought mentorship through the books and, and certain teachings that, that allow me to learn through other people's experiences. You know, we, we, we can learn. I also as just my own disposition, I.
Learned what not to do from observing those around me. Which sounds a little bit like what was going on with you? Like, Hey, these weren't good examples for me. You know, this is how not to be a man. This is how not to show up. And so mentorship can show up in many different ways. Obviously having a human being that's been through it and can talk you through and hold space, like you said, be present with you is a huge gift.
And if someone doesn't feel they have access to somebody, there's other ways to find, you know, mentorship of sorts, support, guidance, you know, wisdom.
Patrick Boland: Yeah. And, and just like you, I'd say, lots of books that have read, lots of authors that I've read, they've, they've been surrogate [00:17:00] mentors for me. Um.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: Definitely, definitely. if they're alive and you get access to them, it's, it's amazing just the, the, the change that happens through osmosis from just being around them being in, you know, experiencing their energy, experiencing their presence. But it's not required. You're absolutely right.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah. Yeah, totally. At what point you had ambitions to be a pilot? What happened?
Patrick Boland: I always wanted to fly. Yeah. Um, when I grew up here in Ireland, my uncle was the head of the aerobatic display team in our very tiny Air Corps, I used to go to all these air shows growing up and sitting in jets and things from the age of five. I thought this is the coolest thing ever. So, uh, I worked in the airport quite illegally at the age of 14.
I marshal my first,
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: that was like literally bring it in with the little sticks. Um, I just lived and breathed aviation, just really wanted to fly. I couldn't join the military because I have asthma and I missed a lot of school and my asthma, so with that. [00:18:00] And then I went, look, I can go into rescue helicopters if I go and train as a commercial pilot first, and they do do a transfer course. I had, I'd worked for a few years. I had done everything my dad asked me to do, and I'd done the degree and I'd worked in a bank and I'd worked in consulting and I did all these things. And then I was like, I'm just gonna finally have the courage to pursue what I want. went to train as a pilot. got into a top flight school in Spain. I was delighted. I got my bank loan secured. I was all ready to go. I had an interview with an airline before I started my course and they said, just send us your class one error, medical results. And um, I was really worried about my asthma and the lung capacity test.
And I remember going in on the day and I failed the first time they put the mask over me. I didn't hit the, I think it was the 70th percentile I had to hit for. Chest air capacity. the doctor gave me another chance, and I went and I just about crossed the line, 70th percentile. And I was like, amazing.
I'm in. And then [00:19:00] checked my eyesight on the, you know, the, the letters, uh, everything was great. Better in 2020 vision. And I was so relaxed. And then they gave me this booklet with a lot of circles it colored circles. And they said in the circles, you'll see a number. What number do you see? And by the time I got to page two, I was like, um, what number is it?
I, I can't see a number. And then the lady made me go through every single page of the issue, Hara colorblindness test. And at the end said, you're colorblind and you're never gonna fly commercially.
Jonathan Hermida: Wow.
Patrick Boland: And like my heart just sank. And like, I was down for three years. I was like, finally I had the courage to pursue my thing. And here we go.
Jonathan Hermida: How did you process that?
Patrick Boland: I was angry. Firstly, I, I played the victim. Uh, I found out everything about colorblindness, the kind I had, and I was like, my granddad never told my [00:20:00] mom he was colorblind. Uh, so not fair. So I, I did that. Then I started blaming my dad. Um, I, I did all the victim stuff, you know, I was sick. I missed the test in school.
I was in hospital with asthma at Sono Fair. then after a while,
Jonathan Hermida: I.
Patrick Boland: I, uh, yeah, just deep sadness, like really deep sadness and disappointment and heartbreak. Uh, I transferred all that energy for sail, for flying into sailing. Um, I, I didn't sail growing up, but I had one experience with my friend and his dad on their boat, and I thought sailing seems magical.
Just too slow comparison to flying. Um. then, um, yeah, I kind of went all in for sailing and I went from zero to hero and, uh, firstly got my international sailing license and rented some boats with some friends in the Mediterranean. And that was really scary and fun and amazing. And then, [00:21:00] um, I'd had a sense when I was 19 that three things were gonna be important to me in life. writing, sailing speaking Italian. So I did Italian in college. I was always writing the background poems, essays, I went. So 26 I went for sailing and then I just kept on going. Qualified as a professional sailor. Um, kept on going, became a yacht instructor. um, not really to, to work at it, but more just so I could be confident.
'cause the waters around Ireland can be pretty choppy and pretty challenging. Um, so I had a lot of fun. Continued to have a lot of fun with sailing.
Jonathan Hermida: Hmm. And internally at this point, you're in your late twenties. How are you? What's your relationship with yourself at this point?
Patrick Boland: The work that had started around the age of 15 and 16, that was like round one of the internal work.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: I'd say [00:22:00] 19. A lot of stuff hit me again when I was in college and I had been made president of one of the student organizations and just conflict and all the stuff that happens when you're involved in organizations that just hit me. Um, so that was round two therapy, part of that, um, disappointment in work and love life and careers and the whole lot. So I think by the time I was in my late twenties, I was like, I'm just gonna stop trying to pursue stuff so hard. I'm gonna just. Become a little bit more open and try to let go of all these tightly held ideas I have about life
Jonathan Hermida: Hmm.
Patrick Boland: how I'm gonna contribute and what I'm gonna do and how important it all is. Um, so yeah, I went to, uh, uh, one of my friends, uh, he was training as a spiritual director, is the term. So I went to him for a few sessions and were just focused tons on letting go. How do you let go? And then at this point I started reading [00:23:00] Richard Rohrer's book. So Rohr over there in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Um, I didn't want to read any of these books. I thought I was kind of done with reading about Christian spirituality, but my friend gave it to me and I remember 20 pages in. I was like, this is actually good. This is really helpful. This book is called Everything Belongs. so I started really getting into the contemplative traditions.
The mystical traditions, and just noticing all the parts of me that were trying to hold on, that were trying to force things. And I, I learned about the distinction. Between what's called the atic and the APHA approaches within, um, Christian mysticism. So one is atic. I wanna build up, get loads of stuff, do loads of things in some way to try and touch the, the eternal, get to God, get to heaven, whatever it is. Um, and I was still on that path. That's the classic Enneagram three path of success. More achieve goals, go. And then there's the APHA path of like, let go of all [00:24:00] that stuff. What you're looking for is within, try to let go different practices, meditation, contemplative sits, um, journaling, exercises, everything, anything, and strip away all the layers that are getting in your way and in the way of your relationships and in your work and every part of your life.
Go inside, become present to what's already there. Trust that. for, for those of faith, that's where God is. It's, it's not out there pie in the sky. So that's where I was, I'd say by 28, 29. so that was a profound, profound change.
Jonathan Hermida: A profound change. I know I'm gonna jump timelines here and we'll go back to the, a bit of the timeline, but you ended up writing a book with Richard Rohr.
Patrick Boland: I did.
Jonathan Hermida: How did you first connect with Richard?
Patrick Boland: It was pretty crazy. I was reading his work for a number of years. I was getting married. My wife was at her bachelorette party and they asked the question, who would Patrick most like to have dinner with? Who's [00:25:00] alive? She's like, oh, it's easy. Richard Rohr. But, and um, about a month later I had a very vivid dream that I was working with Richard, that I was writing a book with him. I remember waking up going, that was pretty weird. Very vivid, opening my emails, reading the daily meditations that his organization have. And one of them said, we're hiring head of people organization development. I thought, I'm gonna take this as a sign, put in a, a resume. I didn't have one for the last 10 years. then, uh, five months later I was over for a week trying to work out would my wife and I move to New Mexico to work with Richard. And, um, so we, like, first thing I did was I, I met him as part of the process and we just got on really well. And, later that night he's like joining bed for dinner and just chat and stayed in touch.
He just kept on emailing and being in touch and we just got on extremely well and we kind of, it was such a, a gift for me to just, firstly I didn't want to meet him [00:26:00] because you don't wanna meet your heroes in case they ruin it.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: And it was way better, way better than I could have predicted. So that was an incredible gift. also it was just so fun. Like, we'd go on road trips over the years. Um. And, you know, we'd be talking about five or six different topics in the across one hour knowing that they're all going to meld into each other in some way,
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: they're all interconnected. And so for me, just having someone else who thinks like that, but like on a whole other level is just so much fun and, and so, so profound. So, um, yeah, in the end it made sense for me to be, uh, a consultant for the organization Center for Action Contemplation. So asking me would I do some work on some of Richard's books and do some, um, creating some resources. 'cause I've done a lot of work on, um, processes, group processes, you know, team development, all that kind of stuff. Um, and I've been leading small groups, men's groups on other small groups for 20 years. So it was an opportunity to, to bring a lot of these [00:27:00] practices and spiritual practices and soul reflections, put it all together. So that's where it started out. And then in the end they asked what, I write a book with him.
Um. He had a bestseller called The Universal Christ. And then, um, the feedback was some of his readers, uh, struggled with some of, to access some of the content. So I wrote a book of 40 different reflections using his work with Richard's Imprimatur, helping people to experientially and in an embodied way access the content, reflecting on some of my own life experiences or reflecting on famous people in the world different stories of different people with a different exercise at the end of each very short 800 word piece.
So that was and I dreamt about it years before. Um, but that wasn't the best bit. The best bit was to know Richard. That still is the best bit.
Jonathan Hermida: And, and having him as a mentor, I imagine. [00:28:00] Yeah.
Patrick Boland: incredible.
Jonathan Hermida: Incredible.
Patrick Boland: a gift I.
Jonathan Hermida: So your life pivoted. You, you started to pivot towards a place of service. And what's interesting is, and, and kind of, you know, and, and, and really trying to live from a deeper place, what's interesting is that three in your Enneagram never really left from what I'm seeing because you, you ended up getting a ton of diplomas credentials there.
You're, your background is quite extensive in that regard. Can you share a little bit about that motivation and some of those degrees and certifications that you ended up accumulating over that period of time?
Patrick Boland: Yeah, of them. Jonathan came from a place of fear.
Jonathan Hermida: Okay.
Patrick Boland: It was, well, what if this thing doesn't work out? I wanna have a backup. So there was a little bit of that. I finished my pursuit of flying, uh, I got a call from my high school seeing would I come back and teach. And it literally. Happened a day after I [00:29:00] found out I was colorblind.
I was like, okay, just, just go with it. as part of that, while I was teaching, I had to go and get my, my qualifications, went back to Trinity College, did that, and then I did a master's off the back of that in guidance and counseling, which was my first foray into, you know, professional qualification for coaching or therapy or counseling. And yeah, I, I didn't really enjoy it, but, um, some of it was, was okay, I just saw it as, you know, it was the, the thing I needed in order to practice. Um, and then I just kept on going with, with those things. Uh, I went back and did theology, which was great. Um, 'cause I'd always wanted to do it in college.
My dad said, no way. so that was very redeeming and, uh, it was really redeeming 'cause I just kind of wrote pretty much the stuff that I thought, the stuff that I believed that made sense to me, that resonated for me and that went really well. Very enjoy. Then I trained as an executive coach as well. And that was brilliant. It was just such an [00:30:00] experiential course. It was constant triad work. It was constant trial and error, very pragmatic, very real better than the, the formal academic master's qualification that I had. Um, and then, yeah, I just kept on getting, offered this course to train as a psychotherapist as well. And the third time it came my way, I was like, maybe I should pay attention to this. so I started doing that just to become a, a better coach or to have more resources or greater depth around my coaching. and then I realized after about six years, oh, you have to keep on practicing to keep this up. So I do, I do three hours on a Friday, uh, near to where I live. Um, and that's, that's been a gift as well.
There's a, there's an overlap, but it's quite, quite a distinctive and different approach than traditional executive and leadership coaching. yeah, it's been, I suppose it's been moving in the direction of things that I do care about now, now that I've answered the question. It actually, may have started [00:31:00] out with some fear at the beginning, but it's certainly become very, um, life giving to me and to others follows, follows the right path, the right trajectory.
Looking back now, at the time it was often confusing, especially to others.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah. Not only life giving, but it sounds like you were following the breadcrumbs. It, it, it doesn't sound in the way that you're sharing it, that you were seeking it out, trying to, you know, what else can I do? It was really, oh, this is in front of me. I've seen it three times. Maybe I should listen.
Patrick Boland: Absolutely. Do you know, there's a, there's a quote from the poet, David White, uh, specifically on this that I have in my book. Could I read you the short
Jonathan Hermida: Please do. Yeah, please.
Patrick Boland: Uh, he says A life's work is not a series of stepping stones under which we calmly place our feet, more like an ocean crossing where there is no path
Jonathan Hermida: Hmm.
Patrick Boland: only heading a direction conversation with the elements. Looking back, we see the wake we have left as only a brief glimmering trace on the [00:32:00] waters.
Jonathan Hermida: I got chills. I got chills. Yeah, that's it. And, and I think that's the biggest fear that people have or folks. There are those of us and I many that are listening to this conversation that are called to embark on a journey, on a path that is the pathless path. It is a path that nobody else has embarked because it is, because it is unique to each life that is in front of them.
But that is a risk because what's easy following somebody else's trajectory, oh, this worked, get this degree, do this, like you mentioned before, kind of follow the, the, the line. And that's why people do it because it's, there's some sort of, um, feeling of security and safety in that.
Patrick Boland: Yeah.
Jonathan Hermida: But for those of us that are really called to do this deeper work and be of service, it really feels like a pathless path.
And there it comes a time where we have to begin trusting and listening more deeply, not just to our own inner self, but also to what life is calling forth within us. And, and, and that could be quite, um, disorienting, disconcerting, right? It's like navigating the [00:33:00] open ocean. And then, but can you trust? Can you trust that life is supporting the way?
Patrick Boland: Yes.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: Yes. It's difficult. I think particularly the first time around, the first step into the unknown, it can feel, depending on the schema or the script, that the narrative that we've inherited, it can feel like sometimes even like death, like psychological death to to step out and not have the known, um. But I think like all of these deep spiritual principles, we need to take the step first and then things become clear. That's certainly been my experience.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah,
Patrick Boland: Gotta just step into the unknown. It still is today. There's things I'm stepping into now that I'm worried about, scared about.
Jonathan Hermida: yeah.
Patrick Boland: Um, but I know from experience it's gonna happen.
It's gonna work well in the end. It'll just be different to what I first thought
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: be pain for me. There'd be learning in it. Um, and I really don't know fundamentally which way it's gonna [00:34:00] play out,
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah. It,
Patrick Boland: but that's not the point.
Jonathan Hermida: it is, it's not the point. You know, I, I, I, thinking about folks in my life, I, I just had a conversation with somebody who came over, a friend of mine who was working at an accelerator and thought that this was their career. When, when some, when a company within the accelerator recruited her to join their organization, a fast startup, like a fast growing startup, and she made the leap and she's like, okay, life is calling me forth in this direction.
And, you know, I just got my visa from, from France. Uh, this is an Italian based company. Maybe my life is orienting towards Europe. Great. The bread crumbs are going in this direction. Six weeks in, she gets fired. It wasn't the right fit. It was actually got toxic quite quickly. It got toxic quite quickly.
And so she recognized that it wasn't for her and all the signs that she thought were pointing her in a direction blew up. And now she's finding herself flailing a little bit. But when I was really digging and asking her questions, she's saying, yeah, but there's a deeper voice that's saying, yeah, you have to wait right now.
[00:35:00] There's something happening. But that's be because of the flailing and because of the way that our mind is constructed to, to notice the, the, when the mi, the amygdala gets activated. 'cause it's trying to keep us prote safe.
Patrick Boland: Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Hermida: We can settle beneath that and really listen. There is a, I've found and I've noticed in my clients and others friends, that there is a deeper voice that knows, and that is.
At least telling you, giving you guidance. Either go forward or stay put, you know, very, very kind of general, but, but, but clear direction, you know? And, and if we can really listen to that and hold steady, life shows up eventually.
Patrick Boland: It's so true. No, you said it perfectly there. think a lot of the time it's a function of how, how much of a grip we have on of how my life should be.
Jonathan Hermida: That's right.
Patrick Boland: And often it's an unconsciously [00:36:00] held narrative or schema because this is it, this is it, and I found that different cultures have a different relationship to that as well. That certain cultures, you really want things to be planned out and very clear. Um, other cultures not as much. And it really depends on the stories we read on the myth that we feel that we're a part of. this something that needs to be incremental, logical, clear, almost mechanistic? step by step by step?
You go, you grow. As you know, certain personalities are more drawn to that and need that to assuage interfere for, and for them that can be like one of the biggest invitations and one of the biggest challenges. And then there's others, like I love going back into say, our own Irish, um, stories and culture, that. You know, go back at least a thousand years ago, if not way before. the narrative, it, it's always cyclical. It's always all over the place. It's crazy. Everything is [00:37:00] unpredictable, but everything is a moment, an opportunity for magic, for certain things to happen at an intersection, intersection of time, intersection of place, intersection of relationship. Um, I remember we're studying it in ancient Irish when we were in school thinking this is a crazy story. now I'm like, oh, there's so much depth and magic to this. It's a whole other schema of how to approach reality.
Jonathan Hermida: Yes, yes. And it's true. And we're living in different, uh, levels of awareness and relationship to reality.
Patrick Boland: Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Hermida: like the simple framework of life happening to me. Life happening by me, life happening through me, and then as me, those sort, sort of stages because
Patrick Boland: Beautiful.
Jonathan Hermida: to those levels of, levels of consciousness.
Where most of the world right now is living by life happening to me. I'm a, a victim to my circumstances and I can't change my circumstances, but then somebody graduating from life happening to me to life happening by me. That level of empowerment. I got this, go get 'em. That American mentality, you know, kind of thing.
That's where you're saying I'm driving things forward. I see [00:38:00] a goal, I go towards a goal that, that, that's really life giving for that stage of awareness,
Patrick Boland: Yes.
Jonathan Hermida: but that also has edges and that also has dead ends.
Patrick Boland: And a huge shadow. A huge shadow.
Jonathan Hermida: A huge shadow, a huge shadow.
Patrick Boland: that's, that's the first half of life drive and it's appropriate and important and good. Like that's part of the process of being mentored into adulthood and taking responsibility and having agency and moving beyond victim and all that kind of stuff.
Jonathan Hermida: Totally
Patrick Boland: But if we stay there forever, like, like, you know, Jonathan, sometimes I'm working with. People, senior leaders, executives who are in their fifties and sixties, and they're still going at that pace in that way. And there's very little maturation has taken place or reflection or depth or change. They haven't gone through the liminal options that have come their way. They've just pushed through and driven.
Jonathan Hermida: right.
Patrick Boland: then they're often wondering, why is my health failing? Or why is, why are the other people on the senior team not listening to me as much? Or why are people not working as hard as we used to work? I [00:39:00] wanna just keep on pushing and driving. We can't keep that up across the lifespan and integrate and individuate collaborate effectively. need people, I think, to be, to acknowledge the life phase that they're in and to embrace it. 'cause that's where we get mentor, mentor, energy, generative energy.
Jonathan Hermida: To support and I said to support those transitions, you know, especially because you mentioned the liminal space and that is really where people feel it's speaking of flailing and fe feel. Uh, speaking of, you know, just being, being disoriented, you know, the place be between the no longer that which no longer is here and the not yet nothing that that new thing hasn't come.
Where my friend is at the no longer that job that I, that was secure, that I thought was gonna be there is not there. But the new thing is not there either. Ne neither is the clarity on the path forward. So how do I live in that, in that space? How do I live in that space?
Patrick Boland: Yeah. and I think in the western world with the dominant [00:40:00] cultural narratives we have, it's particularly difficult.
Jonathan Hermida: Yes.
Patrick Boland: know when I go to parts of Asia, um, I've been amazed at just the capacity, the greater capacity, not across the board, but the greater capacity in the, well, I don't know. Let's see what happens. I'm like, wow, an incredible way to, to, uh, to be brought up for those who've been brought up that way, an incredible way to, to deal with life.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah. And what's interesting is, I, I think you speak a lot about the VUCA world, volatile, uncertain. Remind, remind me of the C and the A.
Patrick Boland: Yeah. Complex, chaotic, and ambiguous.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah. And ambiguous, right? And so we're, we're entering into an unknowable future. I feel with the advent of AI and everything that's happening in the world, it's really unknowable.
We can't predict what's happening next, you know? And you wrote a book called The Contemplative Leader that I think is a good moment to, to speak a little bit to it. Can you share, give some context on the Contemplative Leader, um, what's the essence of that book and the teaching there, and what you're inviting leaders to step [00:41:00] into?
Patrick Boland: Yeah. Love to. The main theme is looking at how to lead from a place of contemplation, and oversimplify it on purpose and say, let's just say contemplation is a stance of non-attachment, where I'm present to myself and present to situations and to. And I'm connected to the people around me and to the business, the organization, the political environment, whatever it is where I'm leading and influencing, how can I be here without forcing things, without forcing control and forcing an agenda that isn't really gonna work isn't really appropriate. And how can I, when things go wrong, things don't go my way. How can I not just swing the pendulum the whole other way and become detached and disengaged completely? How can I remain the unknown when it's a known and also in the known and execute excellently? So it's [00:42:00] this non-dualistic consciousness of how can I focus on the process well as the outcome. Focus on the relationship with people, as well as the numbers, focus on the contribution to, uh, those who we serve and to our society, as the inner realities of running a business or running any organization. not to. Limit and narrow down our vision and our focus, but to have a more expansive way of engaging.
And then how can I lead and influence other people without needing them to conform to my way of being and my way of doing things? How can I meet them where they're at, draw the best from them? how can we understand the dominant culture, the dominant consciousness of the organization or of the team of the department, how can we have ways of practically and simply the relationships, build the dynamic, take steps to move forward. but I start off, the first two thirds of the book are the inner journey of leadership, so moving from the conscious to the [00:43:00] pre-conscious to the subconscious, um, all the work around that.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah. And that, that's about right. Right. In terms of two thirds, meaning I think for anybody's journey of leadership, two thirds of it is the inner journey is the work that we're doing ourselves. And then that final one third is, okay, how do I now impact support? Take it out into the world?
Patrick Boland: Yeah.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah. What, what, where do, where do most leaders get stuck?
So somebody who's maybe, you know, living very much in the consciousness of life happening by me and driving something forward, driving their team forward, driving the vision forward. Obviously if they're gonna work with you at this level, there has to be a, a crack, an opening of a desire to, to live a, a different way.
So, so what is the journey for them then to go from doing it in that way to kind of slowing down and coming deeper into themselves?
Patrick Boland: Love the question. Yeah. What's the crack that lets the, the light get in? [00:44:00] It's been different, uh, those leaders who've read the book and then come to work with me. It's been quite interesting 'cause it's been slightly different to those who I would've traditionally worked with before that. Um, usually they've done quite a lot. They're able to execute. They're competent. They've got capabilities, they have some degree of self-knowledge, self-awareness. They have some degree of development done and they wanna do more. But they've got this, this niggling feeling that it's just the best thing that I can be doing with my life or in the business. Do we just take on another business school's program or the latest book that's been, you know, come through Harvard Business Review. Not to say they're bad books, but you know, the latest fad, the latest thing. Um, there's usually something [00:45:00] that has made them go, I really need to, to get to the bottom of this.
So I've had people, I've had young CEOs in their thirties who. There's been a massive relational breakdown with the COO who was a childhood friend. So that was, that was one, and that was the crack in the entry point. I've had very seasoned CEOs kind of in their sixties looking at the next few generations of legacy and had a handover and how to adapt the, the strategy of the business, into the future knowing that tech and media and everything is just changing so much.
And so that was the entry point. And then as we got into the work, they realized it's actually about their own inner work. And it's actually about the development of their senior team because they're just stuck in business as usual. We know how to execute, we know how to do what we've always done, do we have the capacity to be agile, to be flexible, to adapt, to sit back, to assess, to have space, [00:46:00] to silence, to listen to ourselves, to listen to each other, see what's emerging in the system, um, what's emerging in the macro system around us. Um, yeah, it's, it's really, it's, there's a quite a variety. Um, even had like, you know, classic, um, C-suite people from traditional banks and things like that who are just interested kind of going, how do you bring in contemplative ways of being in a senior team that are pushing hard and bringing about huge change within a system?
How do we, the big question I have one client now is how do we influence the CEO and how do we influence the regulators so that, uh, we can do what we need to do, but also let them understand there's a whole other way of adapting to risk profiles,
Jonathan Hermida: Hmm.
Patrick Boland: and there's a whole other narrative. It's not just, we're here to keep the border in check.
We're here to show possibilities and opportunities moving into the [00:47:00] future. So it can be quite exciting, but fundamentally it comes back to going, how do we go inside? How do we understand the impact of our leadership? How do we understand our dynamic amongst ourselves? How do we get outta silos? How do we collaborate in real ways?
How can we be honest? How can we be vulnerable? How can we say we make mistakes? Um, there's a lot of stuff on embodied leadership that I do, you know, how do we create the conditions for team and, uh, development and team learning in a psychologically safe way? But it all starts with our own learning.
And then what does it look like as it, as it moves out in wider concentric circles across the system?
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah, how do you navigate? So it's a little bit different from having a culture that's already established within this framework of contemplative leadership and contemplative thought, because as you're hiring, you're bringing people that are in alignment with it. But if you were to go into a team and shake things up and sort of invite people to reflect, go deeper, do the inner work, the big [00:48:00] risk is that they're gonna discover, this is not for me.
I don't wanna be doing this. I wanna be doing something else. My life is, this is not my work to be done here. So I don't know if you've had situations like that arise, and if you have, if you can share examples and how do you navigate, you know, how do you help leadership navigate that when people are falling off because they're realizing this is not where they need to be.
Patrick Boland: hmm. I think that the same applies to all coaching at one level. When if we take the time to connect with ourselves and what's deeply happening within us and what we really desire and how we can contribute, it's inevitable that there's gonna be, you know, quite a percentage of people will go, I don't want to be here.
I was in almost in a trance for, for a while. Um, what else is there? So for me that, that's just a thing, that's just a phenomenon that happens anyway in terms of engaging in contemplative leadership specifically. It [00:49:00] works really well when individuals do it as part of a systemic approach where they can keep conversations open amongst themselves and where there's a high degree of commitment, um, some degree of flexibility that we can actually change or ways of working change or ways of interacting. Um, but if that's not present at the start, that can emerge in time. But I think it's all about doing it together. If we go on a journey in isolation, I think we run the highest risk of, as we grow, we realize that people aren't growing around us, but as we do it in small groups and and small teams and then wider teams, then it gets pretty exciting.
And it's not that we want everyone to go, I'm gonna be really non-attached. I'm gonna be doing things in a particular way. What I write about in the book and the approach, it's not formulaic approach. It's not that you have to do it this way. Some, you know, [00:50:00] different people to it at a different level.
For some, it's just, oh, okay, I don't need to be in control as much as before. Fine, it. For others, it's, they go right to the very last chapter, which is looking at, um, understandings of consciousness according to the, original understanding of spiral dynamics. The way it's kind of taught more in Europe these days, of like, let's just notice the culture, notice the dynamics.
Notice where things naturally sit. my approach to leadership and is our approach to leadership, is it working within the system or not? Can I flex? Can, is the system ready to change? if yes, let's go through some change stuff. If no, then can I change or not? How do I essentially get over myself, my only go of desires to be in charge and in control, and how do I meet people where they're at? Um, and that's a lot of the work. It's going, how do I facilitate and serve and connect with in ways that are most appropriate? And that can be really, really [00:51:00] exciting, uh, if people are up for it. Sometimes people are very burnt out though, as you probably know yourself, and they come to coaching almost as a last ditch to go, how can I fix it and change it?
Jonathan Hermida: Right.
Patrick Boland: and that's unfortunate 'cause we might come to coaching a little bit too late. I think ideally we come when things are feeling pretty good
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah,
Patrick Boland: because then we can really explore without having to be in our sympathetic nervous system state of survival.
Jonathan Hermida: that's right. That's from a place of groundedness and, and explore freely. Yeah, totally.
Patrick Boland: Yeah.
Jonathan Hermida: How has fatherhood changed you?
Patrick Boland: Um, it's given me way less sleep. uh, my, my almost 2-year-old son, two weeks ago, he was in my arms and he just came right up to my eyes and he pointed in his lines. Lines
Jonathan Hermida: you out.
Patrick Boland: Yeah. Then he goes, daddy, old man. These are some of his, some of his full sentences. I was like, great,
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah. Perfect.
Patrick Boland: welcome the feedback. Um,
Jonathan Hermida: And you're like, I wonder why.
Patrick Boland: yeah. Yeah. It's like, I'm gonna tell you about [00:52:00] this when you grow up. Uh,
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: waking up eight times a night.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: it changed me? Um, I was really scared of being a father. I didn't want to be a father for obvious reasons. years and years. I'd meet up with Richard Rohr and I'd say once a year like, tap me on the knee and go, you're gonna be a great father someday. And I just like, up or choke up and go, no, no, I could never do that. Um, and so over the years I started to believe that it could be possible and maybe I won't cause the most harm I could possibly think of. Um, by the time became a father, I was. 38 I think. Yeah, 38 when I became a father. Um, I was actually ready. I'm so glad it didn't happen before that. Um, and honestly, it's felt very peaceful. It's felt like [00:53:00] people ever used the word privilege, but like ama just amazing, like an amazing privilege. Um, it's been hard. Neither of our boys sleep. My eldest is nearly six and um, sometimes he sleeps now, but he didn't for the first three years.
And the youngest nearly two. We have another one coming in July. so sleep, social life, all that stuff. I think it's changed me, like physically I don't have as much energy to go to the gym, you know? so, you know, I've moved from lifting weights to a lot more swimming. That's been one piece.
Jonathan Hermida: Sure.
Patrick Boland: Um, but in ways it's felt very. Integrating for me, it's felt,
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah.
Patrick Boland: um, calm, felt peaceful. It's been hard and family dynamic, just a lot of illness and all that kind of stuff. it's, it's felt, yeah, it's felt very at home and I've been surprised by that in ways. And [00:54:00] I, I feel a lot more contentment, if I'm honest, a lot more contentment. Um, it's also made me kinda slow down a little bit at work. Like 2019, I was on 60 flights. I'd be in one part of the US one day and an instant ball two days later. So that wildness has stopped, um, good, good for everyone, including the environment.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah. Totally. Totally. How has it changed your relationship, not just with your dad, whether, I don't know if he's alive or not, but your reflecting on your childhood and how he fathered you and how you're now fathering your boys. Is there, is there, has that come up for you in terms of reflecting on your father in that way?
Patrick Boland: Yeah, it certainly has. Um, I think the stuff with, with my dad kind of came to a place of peace for me, uh, long before I became a dad. Um, a conversation one [00:55:00] time, uh, I won't go into the details of it, but essentially by the time we finished, I just kinda went, okay, you've got a different, a completely different take, even eyes wide open.
You've got a totally different philosophy and approach to life. Um, that's okay. You're entitled to have that, that's your prerogative. I've got a different one. There's, there's the big difference. Um, so it hasn't really affected that. My dad died last year
Jonathan Hermida: Hmm.
Patrick Boland: and, uh, like he was 92. So he, he had had a great innings,
Jonathan Hermida: Hmm.
Patrick Boland: and I was glad that he had. had met my two sons. Um, my wife decided to call our son Patrick as well, so he's now the ninth generation
Jonathan Hermida: Wow. Wow.
Patrick Boland: we got over 200 years of that going here in Dublin.
Jonathan Hermida: That's incredible.
Patrick Boland: Um, yeah, it is kind of wild.
Jonathan Hermida: Do you, do you have the number at the end of it at this point? Like.
Patrick Boland: I dunno, uh, I think my dad would like that. Um, no, it's [00:56:00] culturally we, we don't really do that here, but um, maybe if we visit the US we, we do that.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah. Yeah.
Patrick Boland: so yeah, I don't, I don't think it's changed too, too much. I mean, I can still understand. I think I can understand where he is coming from. he certainly, before he died, he commented a lot on appreciating the way I was with my boys and that was really nice and really encouraging, but also not something that I needed.
So it was a very non-attached way of kind of going. Thank you. That's that's lovely. I'm really glad that you see it. Um. But I wasn't craving that at the same time. So it was, it felt quite peaceful.
Jonathan Hermida: And beautiful. Beautiful. How do you relate? So we're, like I mentioned, we're entering into an a noble future, the VUCA world. How do you relate to that yourself? As a father of young kids that we're entering into this AI inevitability where AI is gonna be infused in all things, um, possibilities, opportunities are gonna look [00:57:00] different for them than they looked for us.
Patrick Boland: Yeah.
Jonathan Hermida: Uh, your own work is gonna evolve as a result. How are you relating to everything that's unfolding right now in the world?
Patrick Boland: Yeah. In different ways. On one level, I kind of go from Ecclesiastes. There's nothing new under the sun. So huge change has always come about civilizations rise and fall. I was reading my eldest son the poem, ZY Manus there, um, last week he asked, what is a poem? And I took out an Irish poem by Yates and then this one, ZY Manus. And I explained to him about, you know, the statue on the sand saying, you know, look, all you, everyone who gazes on the statue, and you know, basically be terrified. Just look, look at what I have. And there's only sand left, there's nothing left the civilization.
Jonathan Hermida: Hmm.
Patrick Boland: So on one level I think about that. But then on another level around AI specifically, um, was on the Human [00:58:00] Exchange website yesterday, human exchange.com, and they have a movie come out about ai, um, a documentary
Jonathan Hermida: Right.
Patrick Boland: actually out now. Um. Um, you know, one of the founders was just talking about interviewing all the CEOs of all the AI companies, interviewing all the engineers, or not all, like a, a sizable amount of them. 10% of 'em are saying that they're worried that their children won't make it to high school, that there's a real existential threat to the human race. So when I hear that kind of stuff, and the more I've looked into the research forum, like we need to really get those guardrails on really, really quickly. Um, and, you know, there's a whole rabbit hole of, uh, the research and the conversations around that and what's required by, by lawmakers and everything.
It's basically people to give feedback and for an outcry to be there to say, we, we need it now. Um, so there's a part of me that goes like, this is extremely serious. Um, most serious possibly, uh, on an existential level that, that it has been. Um, [00:59:00] and then at the same time, in the middle of that, I kind of go, I'm gonna do what's mine to do. I'm going to continue to try to do my work see how that plays out. As I father, I will make mistakes and hopefully I'll learn. I will continue to evolve and change in my business, in the model and the ways of working and supporting different people and organizations I support. Um, that's probably as much as I have for now. It's continuing to do it and to support that in, in my kids and in my community and bring influence where I can. Um, so that might be a very simplistic answer, overly simplistic. Um, that, that's where I'm at right now.
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah, I mean it, I, I think it's the only sane way to approach it. You know, we, we can't overly optimize for something. We have no idea [01:00:00] where it's gonna head or what it, what it, what the result is. So the only same thing to do is, you know, slow down, stay present, listen deeply to yourself, to your children, to what's emerging in the world.
And do what's yours. Like you said, do what's yours. Do what's in front of you, you know, and it's gonna change every step that you take. But here we are, you know, what else are we doing?
Patrick Boland: no, absolutely true. And you reminded me of a quote when I, when I wrote The Contempt of Leader. I've got different leaders that I interview in different chapters at the start to hear their story. one of them is one of my mentors, Margaret Wheatley, Mike Wheatley, who's a phenomenal coach and consultant.
And ended her interview with me by talking about, um, one of her teachers, uh, sad guru.
Jonathan Hermida: Hmm.
Patrick Boland: Um, lemme see if I can remember the exact quote. Uh, if you do not do what is yours to do, it's a disaster, wasted space. Um, but if you do, what is yours to do, [01:01:00] that's all that can be asked.
Jonathan Hermida: Yes. Yes. That is beautiful.
That is beautiful. As we, as we wrap up this conversation that has been just so rich in so many ways, for somebody that's listening that's on their own transformational journey and kind of going through it, what, what's the best piece of advice or, or you know, resource or, or what can you share with them that can perhaps help them on their journey?
Patrick Boland: To paraphrase stoic philosophers from, um, story I read to my boys a few nights ago, uh, called, we're Going on a bear hunt. Do you have that in the us?
Jonathan Hermida: know it well. Yeah.
Patrick Boland: Um, here's the context. We were on vacation last week in an island in the south of Ireland, which is a, they all speak Irish There. We went over for the day through Irish form. It was raining, it was horrible. We went on a hike. We got lost. We ended up in a marsh, in a wood. I was carrying a stroller on [01:02:00] one shoulder, my newly 2-year-old in an arm. It was wild. then, and I said my, my almost 6-year-old was leading the charge following science. um, we just kept on coming back to the line from, we're going on a bear hunt. Um, it's a beautiful day. We're not scared. We can't go over it. can't go under it. have to go through it. And that was our mantra in the lashing rain with the wind, a storm coming in as we were getting soaked. And I think that is a beautiful line to think about where we are at right now today, no matter what we're going through, if it's grief, if it's uncertainty,
Jonathan Hermida: Yeah,
Patrick Boland: if it's ill health, if it's a lack of financial security, just a lack of knowing if it's deep anxiety. Embrace it. Be present to it. [01:03:00] curious about it. Ask open-ended questions. What is this? What is it telling me? How can I be here in it rather than avoid it? How can I be connected to whatever it is and how can I give it the space or ask for help to give it the space to see what emerges from it? 'cause where everything begins and ends.
Jonathan Hermida: absolutely. Perfect. Yeah, when we're facing the storm, you can't go over it. You can't go under it. You gotta go through it. You gotta go through it. Patrick, uh, we met serendipitously and. It's a gift to know you and I feel richer after this conversation with you. Thank you for everything that you have done in your own life.
Thank you for your commitment to this journey because the ripples coming from you and through you are impacting many lives, so I appreciate you. Appreciate your time.
Patrick Boland: Thank you so much, Jonathan. It's been great to talk with you. I've really got a lot of energy from it and keep on going with this wonderful podcast and all your work.
Jonathan Hermida: Thank you so much, [01:04:00] Patrick. Appreciate it.