Nicholas Janni shares his extraordinary journey through awakening, trauma, theater, and leadership—and why true transformation requires both healing and awakening. This conversation explores the deeper intelligence available to leaders when they move beyond performance and into presence.
What if awakening isn’t enough?
In this profound conversation, Jonathan sits down with transformational leadership pioneer Nicholas Janni to explore the intersection of healing, awakening, and conscious leadership. Nicholas shares his extraordinary journey—from London’s underground music scene, to Tibetan Buddhism, radical theater in Poland and Switzerland, drumming in West Africa, bodywork in Hawaii, and ultimately into the boardrooms of some of the world’s most powerful organizations.
Together they unpack why so many leaders are unconsciously driven by deficit, how trauma shapes performance, what it means to become a “Leader as Healer,” and why humanity may be standing at the edge of an entirely new paradigm. This is a conversation about flow, presence, enoughness, and the deeper intelligence that emerges when we get out of our own way.
If you’re a coach, leader, entrepreneur, or seeker, this episode will challenge how you think about success, healing, and transformation.
⏰ Timestamps
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nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: [00:00:00] my father was Holocaust traumatized. My mother was bipolar. So, I grew up as an only child in a very disturbed home. But it was a long while before that really presented itself to me as, "Okay, you have to work with this. The awakening is not enough."
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: How, how was that showing up in your day-to-day in terms of the trauma? How was it impacting you in your life?
Nicholas, it is so great to be here with you. I... In reading your story, it's quite impressive how wide-ranging and eclectic your career has been, not just your career, but your life. I mean, you've lived on just about every continent, on planet Earth. started in, in, I believe, theater. You became a musician, and then you got into leadership work. Where I'd like to start this conversation is understanding that moment in time at age 16 when you had this awakening experience. where were you tracking towards? If you [00:01:00] were to take a step back six months prior to that moment, where do you think your life was tracking towards in that moment in time prior to that awakening moment?
nicholas-janni_1_06-18-2026_160122: Well, all I can s- That's a great question. Thank you. All I can say is that I was at school in London. It was a very exciting time in the subculture. We're talking about the whole kind of underground music. You know, Pink Floyd were appearing, and there were free concerts in Hyde Park. And so I was a ... I would say I was a devotee of sex, drugs, and rock and roll.
You know, to put it very
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: teenager would be
nicholas-janni_1_06-18-2026_160122: simply, as any young 16-year-old in London would be. Um, so I was, I was, I was a ... I mean, I already knew that, uh, you know, like at some concerts I would have peak experiences, like almost ecstatic [00:02:00] experiences. But that wasn't ... It wasn't a framework. It was just like, "Wow, I love music," and, you know, "I see what these guys are doing."
Actually, you know, funny enough, I just remember earlier than that, maybe around 12 or 13 or 14, watching on black and white TV at home a concert of The Doors. And I remember my Italian grandmother was watching, and she was horrified. And I remember being fascinated. Jim Morrison. Something in me was like, "Wow, okay."
So, uh, you know, I hadn't thought of that till you asked.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Yeah.
nicholas-janni_1_06-18-2026_160122: these seeds of what ended up transpiring were
Yes
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Your, your, your father was a filmmaker, you
nicholas-janni_1_06-18-2026_160122: He was the famous
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: was
nicholas-janni_1_06-18-2026_160122: film
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: of you as well, so these things were there already
nicholas-janni_1_06-18-2026_160122: Yeah, and I, I was already... He was a very [00:03:00] well-known filmmaker, and I was spending school holidays on the film set. And I loved the vibe there. I loved the people, 'cause they were out-of-the-box people. I can remember. And it was slow. You know, for most people it would be very boring, you know, on a big film set.
It's hours of setup. And I remember sitting there just looking around thinking, "I like this vibe." So it's interesting. I hadn't really thought of that till you asked me. Yeah. I was already drawn to something different and not, you know, not in the norm, let's say. These were creative people, and they were characters.
I remember the way they used to laugh and joke with each other and, and yet they were totally devoted to their craft, so yeah
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: that combination of, I'm sure, freedom of expression but with, um, discipline in,
nicholas-janni_1_06-18-2026_160122: Exactly.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: craft.
nicholas-janni_1_06-18-2026_160122: Yeah, [00:04:00] yeah, yeah. Yeah
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Yeah. Then you had an activating experience
nicholas-janni_1_06-18-2026_160122: I did, yeah.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: age of 16
nicholas-janni_1_06-18-2026_160122: mean, this was a friend of mine who, whose grandmother was living at, um, this Tibetan Buddhist monastery in Scotland, which was then very small, called Samye Ling. It had been started by Chögyam Trungpa, who became quite a legendary figure, but he'd already left for America. But it was just one house.
I think now it's one of the biggest in Europe. And he said, "I'm going to visit her. Do you want to come?" And it just seemed like, why not, you know? Um, so up we went, and I do remember vividly it was, it was exotic. It was Tibetan monks chanting and lots of meditation, which wasn't very easy, and so on and so forth.
And then at one point, someone had given me a very classic Buddhist [00:05:00] text, and I don't know what it was.
nicholas-janni_2_06-18-2026_160924: But I was sitting in our room reading it, and literally it was like, "I know this. I know exactly what this is talking about." It was like a whole window opened
And I, I would, I would say that was a life-changing moment. I couldn't unsee that. I c- didn't know how to make full sense of it. I made as best sense of it I could. I remember writing my parents naively a 10-page letter trying to explain what I'd understood, which didn't go down very well. They thought I was in some kind of cult or something.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: it's time to come back home now.
nicholas-janni_2_06-18-2026_160924: Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Let's get on with [00:06:00] your education. Actually, I remember my father ... That's a whole other story, but I remember him coming home one day with Bertrand Russell's History of Western Philosophy and saying, "Read this," you know, like, "This is the real stuff."
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Yeah. Right. Exactly
nicholas-janni_2_06-18-2026_160924: But nothing, nothing ... I, I, I was totally sure that I'd seen something very important, and that he simply didn't understand.
So I was unshakable in that.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: then it became a question of, okay, how do I explore this? And there were books that became very important. Alan Watts, you know, we're going back some way, but I remember his book, The Way of Zen, became like a bible. There was also Carlos Castaneda. You know, this is going back.
nicholas-janni_2_06-18-2026_160924: These books became like, okay, okay, they're talking about this. Um, and then I had [00:07:00] a different friend who, um, became a really kind of ... We became co-explorers, but really committed. You know, we would, um ... And of course then there was weed, which was a factor as well. You know, we would do things like we would go to Wales and, and walk up the highest mountain, and then choose the steepest slope, probably smoke some weed, and run down in order to get into a completely altered state.
That's how dedicated we were. It was very interesting. You know, we just had to explore this. And then we were both studying classical piano, so that became also a gateway. We were both doing a lot of yoga. So we were l- we were ... You know, I would call it now, of course, state of [00:08:00] flow, which subsequently became a big part of my research and still is.
So that's how it landed then. Then a very important moment came when I'd, I'd already committed to study theater at university, almost by default in a way. I couldn't understand science at all And just before going to university, I was walking in London and there was a particular street which had a secondhand bookshop, and my eyes alighted
I get chills. It's like, okay, this was like designed in some way. My eyes alighted on a book by a man who was a very famous theater explorer called Jerzy Grotowski. In the theater, he's a legend. In England, he wasn't so well known, but there was [00:09:00] something about this book that I just, "Okay." And I read this book and it was kind of like manna from heaven because this book was saying theater is a spiritual path.
And if you g- if you ... The whole book was about the journey of the actor and how deeply open the actor could become. And that referenced me a few other people, famous people like Peter Brook and ... So I went to university then with a completely new perspective of like, "Wow, okay. This is not just a study of academics.
This is a path." And, you know, to the best of my time at university, it was a path. And then as soon as that finished, I went to Poland to find Grotowski. I got a grant and, and this was communist Poland. And by that time he had already quit theater at the height of his [00:10:00] fame. I mean, he was like performing all over the world, but in a very radical way.
Was not normal theater at all. I was so inspired by reading about it, but he'd stopped theater in order to really explore consciousness through the body. And I worked with one of his assistants. And first of all, it was a big shock because I, I had to face the fact that they weren't interested in all I thought I knew.
I'd become very intellectually capable, obviously, and that was a shock. But then we did crazy stuff, Jonathan. We did crazy stuff. Um, this is the only way they knew how to explore. You know, like this was February and about 10 of us were taken out to, uh, an abandoned stable in the forest. It was minus something or other.
[00:11:00] And at the beginning the leader said, "This is gonna be very difficult, but here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna spend five days walking and running in the forest. No talking, no coats, no gloves, no warm clothes." And we ca- we would go to sleep fully clothed 'cause it was so cold. We'd be woken up after two hours, and we did this round the clock for five days.
And a lot of it was just horrendous. It was like, "What am I doing? I'm freezing cold."
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: at in that?
nicholas-janni_2_06-18-2026_160924: Well, what he was aiming at was moments that I will... I can still remember where there was, like, a total opening
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Hmm
nicholas-janni_2_06-18-2026_160924: Oneness with nature and joy and heat. I mean, I have still [00:12:00] have visual pictures of seeing the landscape in this. That's what they were, that's what they were aiming
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Uh, how was it correlated to the degree of intensity and challenge and, and suffering perhaps that, that you were experiencing? Meaning, you were, you were in extreme conditions, and how much of that were you resisting before you finally got into those flow states and that expansive experience?
nicholas-janni_2_06-18-2026_160924: Um, I w- I don't know if I would think about it like that, just I participated, and it was suffering because it was cold and endless and at, and at times seemingly pointless. You know, 2:00 AM in the morning, what are we doing? And there was no talking, no discussion. So but, you know, I, I, I, I agreed to participate.
He actually said at the beginning, "Anyone can leave whenever they want." [00:13:00] So that was an option. But that, um, that opened, I would say... in a way, that pointed to the next 20 years of my life. 'Cause then I came back to England and, um, again, you know, synchronicity was incredible because a friend of mine had written the only English book about Grotowski.
It's a remarkable book. And she told me about this theater group in Switzerland that were a kind of sister group, and she thought they were about to create a new company. So I literally, the next day, got on a train and arrived the day they were auditioning And that was the next three years as an actor pursuing this methodology, which was a, a methodology of opening the body more deeply than I think I've ever known.
I sometimes say we spent three years opening the [00:14:00] pelvis. Actually, it's very true, and that's become a whole part of my teaching and understanding of energy. We took nine months to create a performance. We created two performances in three years. We toured them. They were very intense. They only lasted an hour.
Some people came multiple times to see the same performance. It was not normal theater. We spoke, of course, and we used, um, source material, but then we created our own thing like Grotowski had done in the round, so there was no stage as such. Um, and then I, then I c- then I came to England and, and I spent the next 15, 20 years teaching this work.
And I had my own company, and we were just... I w- I then became the one who was teaching what it would mean to open so [00:15:00] deeply. And what's interesting, Jonathan, is that I also... there's a real parallel to now because I found myself teaching at one point at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art, which probably still is the number one theater school in Europe, and certainly the most kind of established.
You know, they had 2,000 applicants every year and took 15 people. You know, it's the... So here was me bringing this radical work right into the core of the establishment. Interesting. Interesting, which is what I've been doing the last 20 years with executives, so. So, and I never thought I would leave. The theater was so extraordinary.
You know, the, the, the times, particularly in the rehearsal room, where a group of eight or nine, nine actors would enter this deep flow state, [00:16:00] really deep, in which, like, every cell of their body was open. The most extraordinary things would happen. I mean, we would be, like, in the presence of monumental energy flowing through the actors.
And them having learned how to channel it a- and not just be chaotic with it but to actually give it form. It was a very subtle art. I mean, it's like the highest jazz in a way. Um-
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: What techniques were used to open up the body and the pelvis, so to speak?
nicholas-janni_2_06-18-2026_160924: Well, there was a whole series of, of movement exercises from Grotowski and from Switzerland, and actually I have some videos of me demonstrating the work. When I show them to people, they're like, "Wow!" My body was, like, so open and up into a headstand and down and, and just, like, with a kind of [00:17:00] complete mastery of move- moving and openness.
Then pe- there were two women in my company. One had studied Anna Halprin's work in America and also Feldenkrais. So we, we used that. So any rehearsal we did was always preceded by at least an hour of the actors opening, opening, opening.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: how would you with actors... So it's interesting because actors, for the most part, especially at the height of their craft, just like musicians, have such a free flow of energy coursing through their bodies, dancers, such a free flow of energy, of expression, of movement. Now, this is obviously, um, a stereotype, but also there's the-- a lot of actors, a lot of, uh, creatives as well, quite a bit.
They have a lot of,
nicholas-janni_2_06-18-2026_160924: Of course
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: um, internal angst. So because it's, it's, it's quite interesting how on one level you're opening up these channels that are giving the [00:18:00] opportunity for that stuck energy to move, and at the same time, there's still sort of stuck mental energy. And so it doesn't necessarily correlate
nicholas-janni_2_06-18-2026_160924: No, I would say the stuck emotional energy
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: energy
nicholas-janni_2_06-18-2026_160924: And actually, sadly, Grotowski's group, most of them ended up not well at all precisely because of that. So I think that there's-- there are two things. One is that they were opening up, as actors do, all of this energy flow, but they're not doing their personal integration work. And, and then linked to that, I think the biggest problem often is that when you're performing, you experience this very high state, and then you keep crashing And that's a very common phenomenon.
Hmm. [00:19:00] Yeah, it's quite fascinating 'cause then on the other side, those that are doing deep healing work, that they, they, they-- if they're grounded in and, and have that foundation, they would benefit greatly from those movement practices of opening up the, the chi in their body, you know, and getting that movement out, getting that expression out.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: what,
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Yeah
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: about your life is you were not just getting into these sort of in the moment flow states, but your life was a flow state of sorts.
You were truly living and embodying, following and sensing into the flow. mean, there were so many times in your life you, you've mentioned Poland, you've mentioned Switzerland,
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Hmm.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: um, but then your learning journey continued around the world. I mean, you ended up in West Africa learning a specific instrument,
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Yes.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: as well. What
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Yes. Yes
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: that has this inclination to such a learner, such a devout student of life?
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: [00:20:00] Yeah. And even all, all of that time during the theater, I was-- it was all contextualized for me in different reading. You know, I was studying, reading. But to your question, it's a really good question. It-- I think a really insatiable hunger Would be the simple answer. Um, later as I came to understand things more, I understood that that hunger in a way, and I st- still understand it now, has two dimensions, which are the two dimensions I teach.
There was an insatiable hunger for the mystical fire And an insatiable hunger for healing. But it took me a long time to realize the second. I, in a way, I was quite classically [00:21:00] in the, "If I pursue the awakening enough, that will take care of..." I didn't have an understanding of trauma until I did, and then I realized what a traumatic background I come from.
Uh, my father was Holocaust traumatized. My mother was bipolar. So, you know, I grew up as an only child in a very disturbed home. But it was a long while before that really presented itself to me as, "Okay, you have to work with this. The awakening is not enough."
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: How, how was that showing up in your day-to-day in terms of the trauma? How was it impacting you in your life?
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Um, it was showing up in a way that I could also keep crashing. That I couldn't as, as, as much as I longed to, I couldn't stabilize those flow states. They were regular, and they were constantly available. But then I would, seemingly without [00:22:00] much control, I would also crash into a kind of s- more or less depressive state.
So I think that's how it was showing up. But at the time, my only strategy was to try and be more and more in flow. I think that's very common, until we realize that that's never gonna work. You know, there are still now many people in the spiritual world who will tell you meditate enough, and that takes care of healing everything.
I'm afraid to say it doesn't.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Doesn't, doesn't. what were some
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: I'm not afraid to say, actually, that's, that's an important truth to realize that
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: true, yeah. I mean, spiritual bypassing is a huge, um,
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Huge,
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: aspect of the spiritual journey for a lot of people, you know? And they, they l- you know
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Or psychological bypassing, as in if I understand all this enough, that's ... No, absolutely not
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Yeah. what, what were some of [00:23:00] those key outlets that helped you to begin healing that, know, those trauma bonds?
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Um, there were, there was a point where I started therapy with a very good therapist. Actually, that was when my first marriage was breaking up. Um, she was very good, but it didn't really kick in much more deeply till ... Oh, by the way, along the way, let's just include what you said that in that insatiable hunger, I went to Africa for six months, uh, because I'd
One evening in Geneva, um, someone had said, "You have to go and see this drummer. It's his first time outside Africa." So I went, and I was already ... I could play. I used to enjoy playing congas and stuff. And he was playing this djembe drum, and it was just mind-blowing. [00:24:00] I'll never ... You know, I remember he, he was in such a state, and what he did was he would set a speed, and then he would accelerate, and as he did, he would shout.
It was like he was ... I remember thinking it was like he's going up a ladder. And I remember that by the end of his concert, I felt every cell in my body open And that was enough for me to find his address, write to him and say, "Can I come and study with you?" And I spent six months with him, and it was an extraordinary time because he was a master.
I didn't realize quite how recognized he was as a master. But, um, so he was playing most days at marriages or baptisms. And I lived with him and his family and, you know, um, we had electricity [00:25:00] but no running water and stuff. Um, and after... And we had lessons every day, he and I. It was quite a process. But after about a month, he took me to these ceremonies as his accompanist, and I had to be a metronome.
And there were 50 to 100 women. We were the only men, and they were singing and dancing, and one by one, they would come in front of him and, uh, to me, I get chills remembering this. And he would start doing wild improvisation so they could get into a kind of trance. And while he was doing that, I had to be the metronome, which was really difficult because he was like...
But if I varied even like that, he looked at me like that. Wow, what a lesson
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: does it mean to be the metronome?
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: To hold the beat
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Yeah
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: without [00:26:00] the slightest variation
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: yeah. You have to... The high degree of
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: All music is based on that. I mean, I'm a big student of music. You l- you know, there are certain musicians, particularly some of the great... Well, it's true in all music, but, you know, when some master musicians in jazz, when they're playing it very, very fast
And if the beat isn't completely tight, i- it's not good. What gives it the energy is this... It's a very extraordinary thing, music. I have a master musician friend, and we're talking about this all the time.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Yeah
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: So I had to be this clock
And it was amazing just to be in that environment, to [00:27:00] be so deep in his culture. Um, sometimes women after three-- we'd play for three hours, and sometimes my hands were bleeding and, and women would come up crying and hold my hands. It was very beautiful.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: unique in that, wow, I'm really drawn to this, the artist on stage or whatever
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: I'm going. I'm going. Yeah.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Wait, let me go. Where,
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Yeah, and the same thing happened
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: I'll be there.
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Yeah. Yeah. I did that twice more, once with koto drummers in Japan. I saw them in London, and I went backstage and said, "Can I come and study with you?" And then most significantly with a Hawaiian kahuna who's a Hawaiian spiritual teacher. It's a very old, very deep tradition and, and literally I was with a friend one day and he was on the phone, and I heard him talk about this kahuna and I said, "What's that?"[00:28:00]
And he said, "Well, he's giving a talk at this house in London next week." And I said, "Can I come?" And I watched him work on someone. It's like a kind of massage but much more. And he was talking about the work and I was like, "Wow." And so a week later ... I had a quite a stable job teaching in a drama school, and I, I remember going and saying, "I'm sorry, I'm leaving.
I have to go to Hawaii." Same thing. I had to go and study, and that was a two-year process, and it was a most remarkable form of body work
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: So then at what point-- So how is your healing journey then unfolding as your, your self-expression journey is unfold-
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Well, I still, at that point, I was still not understanding about trauma. I was still exploring these openings, these openings. They're [00:29:00] all kind of in a similar field in a way of flow And we learned this way of working on the body that was very remarkable and had no map whatsoever. It was all about getting into a state where you were...
It's almost like you were inside someone's body and you were knowing how to work on their body. And I became a practitioner. This was alongside my theater work when I came back. And people would fly in for a session because it was so strong, the work. It wasn't normal massage. People would go through huge experiences on the table.
Um, yeah
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Yeah. And, and what, what then were, was the activating event to be like, "I need to look at what's inside of me here?"
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Well, by that time I'd moved into working with executives, and [00:30:00] that happened in a, in a very organic, natural way, in an interesting way. Um I don't know if you want to know how that happened. I mean, uh, you know, we were-- I was part of the group that opened the Globe Theatre in London. It's this very special theater.
Um, and during the rehearsal, there was an all-male group, and my best friend was director, Richard Olivier, son of Laurence Olivier. And I was... actually composed a percussion score for the performance. And we also did-- we, we took these men on quite a radical kind of men's group exploration, and they agreed.
We did sweat lodges, and it was interesting. But during the rehearsals, we were invited to explore the play, Henry V, with a group of public service leaders. And [00:31:00] after three days, they all said, "Listen, we've learned more about leadership than in any program we've ever done." And because we were also in the men's movement, we used to bring people like Robert Bly to England and Michael Meade.
So we were deep in that work, and they always used stories. So it was like, "Oh, okay, we have something here, clearly." And we started exploring it for about two years, really, and we got very good at it. Like, what does it mean to use this Shakespeare story as like a, almost like a scalpel And we started getting more and more work.
And in 2001, three of us actually drew a line and said, "We're leaving the theater. We're going full-time into this." And we created a consultancy, and it just grew and grew and grew, and we were [00:32:00] using these extraordinary stories. And we were really disciplined and rigorous, so if we started adding... We did Julius Caesar, but we would spend at least a year or two until we felt, "Okay, it's ready now Um, anyway, at a certain point in all of that, I came across a teacher called Thomas Hubl And he wasn't big then.
He... Not like he is now. Um, so much so that I organized work for him in Israel 'cause he lived in Israel, and my wife's Israeli. And we would have groups for a weekend of, like, 12 people, you know, which now for him would be unthinkable. Um, but I watched him work with people, and I was completely astonished. I, I just never seen how someone could go so [00:33:00] deep so quick.
So again, it was clear to me that he was gonna be my, my teacher. And we became very, very close, and that was, like, probably for at least five, six years. I helped him actually create the whole Pocket Project, and, um, I spent hours with him preparing his first online teaching, what he called Mystical Principles.
So we were really close. And it was through him ... It was also his journey. He was beginning to understand about working with trauma. It's very interesting. And we, we also did these extraordinary groups, um, with maybe 50 Jewish people and 150 Germans, and we would spend five days addressing the Holocaust [00:34:00] And making a space where everything that was in the room could be expressed.
Wow. Wow. So I really learned a lot and was doing my work, and I started then ... I mean, I ran collective trauma groups in New York, England, and Israel for two or three years. That was teaching me a lot as I was doing that and doing my own work. So that was really the beginning of a whole new chapter
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: And at what point did you start to feel that stabilization of, of energy that you were referring to earlier as a result of the healing work that you were undergoing?
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: I mean, that's an ongoing journey, Jonathan. I wouldn't claim it's totally stabilized, but it's certainly moved into higher and higher octaves. Um, [00:35:00] it's very stabilized anytime I'm working That's for sure. And I'm teaching transformational coaching, and I'm teaching what it means to work with healing and awakening.
Um, if it's less stable, it would be more in my everyday life sometimes, but I can still ... It can still be very stable. Yeah. I don't think ... I mean, for me, our path is never, ever finished. Thomas used to speak about that. The first time he, he shocked everyone by ... He said, "Do you understand that this work, our inner work is forever?"
And
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: And
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: there was this kind of shock.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: they go, "Oh, no."
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: What? Yeah, like, I mean, it was, it was quite funny.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: That there's a destination, you know? Yeah
there's this image that I really love of, of healing, of, [00:36:00] you know, as we're, we're expanding, there's an expansion, and there's always that contraction. But in the beginning, the contraction's
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Yes.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: this like
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Yes
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: trauma or whatever it might be.
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Yeah
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: the contraction is actually - the contracted state is quite higher than it was previously
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Exactly. Well, I, exactly. And the image I would give, which I think is exactly what you're saying, because Thomas, like different teachers, used to say the path is like you're going up a mountain.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Yes
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: So what you're talking about, and the way I would put it, is that our base camp gets higher and higher. And that for sure I, I experience.
For sure. Way higher than even a year ago. Which means that in so-called normal life, my whole perceptual field is very easily very open. Very, very open, and [00:37:00] doesn't contract unless I'm in a phase where, which happens, where I'm dealing with still some root trauma. Because that, like you said, I think we go, we keep going into those
It's like a root. We have to keep going deeper. Um
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: When did you start bringing some of these i- like awakening and transformation into the corporate environment, and what was the response?
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Well, at first, I described my work as being all about presence, like what is authentic, embodied, emotionally authentic presence. And then there was a point, I would say about five years ago, by which time I'd left the consultancy I co-created. I was doing my own thing. And this phrase leader as healer kind of dropped in one day, literally, you know, like, oh, okay.[00:38:00]
And I started thinking about it and talking about it, and even mentioned it to a few CEO clients just wondering how they would respond, and always got a really positive response. And then one of my biggest supporters, a man called Michael Watkins, who's quite a well-known figure in the consulting world, um, said, "You have to write about this," which is-- was the birth of the book, Leader as Healer.
Um, and it wasn't easy to write it, but I did. And just as a kind of funny side note, my wife used to say, "Why are you bothering? You know, people don't need another book." And then came this famous evening where it won Business Book of the Year,
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Incredible
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: which was ex- totally extraordinary. And I remember saying, "Well, you see?
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Apparently in this one they
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: It was-- [00:39:00] Apparently, there was a reason to write this book."
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: what made it so difficult?
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: And occasionally I like to remind her about that.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: sure. What made the book writing process so difficult for you?
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: I'm not a natural writer. I'm good at writing short pieces. And actually... Okay, so what happened was I'd written the whole manuscript, but I knew it needed polishing, and I tried a few editors, and they weren't good. But then I read Thomas's book. I'd left Thomas by that time, but his book on collective trauma, and I read it, and I, I know Thomas very well.
I thought he didn't write this, not this good English. He's Austrian, so. So I saw who was the editor, and then one day I attended a book launch of his online, and I saw she was there. So I wrote her and I said, "I [00:40:00] need you. Can I co-" And she done a, she did a wonderful job. So I would send her a chapter. She totally got the book, and would just send it back polished, and then I would go over it again to make sure it was 100% my voice.
That's how we arrived at high-quality English. It's not easy to write. It's... I'm not... You know, I joke. People think it's strange when I say I'm not a writer. It's I'm a speaker. I can speak for two hours to 2,000 people with no notes, and it will be the, you know, pure... And it will be very organized and... But writing is another craft.
And like you, I'm sure when I pick up a book, I know very quickly if this is well-written
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Absolutely.
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: or not. Um, so she really helped me with that. Um, the new book [00:41:00] is very different because, you know, Amy Elizabeth Fox and I have known each other for a long time and knew about how deeply parallel our work was, and we came into contact again about nine months ago and s- and I loved her writing on LinkedIn.
I mean, she's so articulate and deep, and I'd written pieces as well. And we just quite quickly said, "How about we would put..." 'Cause people kept saying, "When are you gonna write the next book?" And I was like, "I c- I'm not doing that again. Two, about two and a half years, I'm not going through that again. I'm just not But we realized that if we put all our pieces together, we could have something very potent.
And then one of her team is a master editor. So she didn't edit our writing, but she organized how it would all flow together. Um, and we quite quickly... [00:42:00] Well, we-- it, it happened very easily, and it was a very, um, graceful process. Within five or six months, the, the book was ready. Amy and I co-wrote the beginning and co-wrote the end, and that was a bit of work, but, you know, enjoyable work.
Um, and my publishers, as soon as I, as soon as I, um, contacted them, they, of course, you know, they would pretty much do whatever I wanted, so
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: You ha- you had won an award after all.
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: I, I ha- I had a bit, I had a bit of, uh, had an account with them, let's say, that was quite full, so.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: yeah. Sure
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: So, and they're, they're astonished by the response of the book, to the book.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: And we've also just recorded the audiobook as well
so this work of healing is entering the [00:43:00] corporate environment, the, the corporate lexicon
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Yes. Yeah, totally. Totally. But you know, it's very simple at first, Jonathan. Um, I ... If I have a, any particular skill, it's one of translating all this into very accessible language. You know, so I work, for instance, at the IMD Business School, which is a top business school and totally conventional. So I might have 40 executives from all over the world for two and a half days who have no idea about awakening or healing.
But I can pretty quickly get them to agree with my premises. It's not rocket science to understand, for instance, that we've prioritized doing over being. We've lost this sense of being. Even when I ask people about flow and I say, "You ... Have [00:44:00] you, have you all experienced flow?" And everyone says yes. And then I say, "So how does it feel?"
All these positive words come out. And then I say, "Okay, so tell me, on average, what percentage of each day do you live in flow?" And it's like 5%. And I'm like, "So do you see what we've normalized? Do you see? And let's start thinking about the implication of that and the structure of that. Why is that? What's preventing flow?"
So what I'm saying is that I can very quickly create a cognitive agreement within a few hours, which then allows us ... And then I have a ... I use often a model of the five elements, earth, water, air, fire, and ether. So the physical body, the emotional body, the mental body, the [00:45:00] inspired body, and then ether, which is this transcendent space.
'Cause then we can start working. So we'll start doing deep somatic work, very simple work. After which people are, like, in a very different state already And then the big threshold is always the emotional one, 'cause that's where there's the biggest fear and all the script about, you know, we don't do emotions, we don't do vulnerability, all of that heavy programming.
But there is always a point where I, I get people writing in a very personal way, and then they share in small groups and almost always there's a big opening then and it's very beautiful. Very, very beautiful. Then the whole field has softened and we're through that. We don't do [00:46:00] vulnerability. People understand the power of vulnerability and so on and so forth.
So I mean, you know, I've done it for a long time, so I can honestly say I'm very skillful at that. And of course, it's all about holding a safe space. And having to also, I would say one of the, one of the biggest, most important changes for me in the last year even, is to be working from more and more love.
Pure love. So that's the transmission. There's zero judgment. Zero judgment. And that's been a process. That's been a process
Total clarity and a lot of love and no compromise
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Yes. You're speaking my language in every way. I mean, this is work that resonates deeply with me. This is what I try to embody as a
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Yeah
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: myself and, and [00:47:00] where I do wish the world is heading more towards. said that, I want us to dance on this a moment because I think this is where a lot of, leaders, a lot of business owners, a lot of, folks that are aiming for the stratosphere kind of bump up against something.
Now, let me set up the premise. I do
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Please
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: especially American companies and in particular, the, the Mag Seven as they call them, the really big
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Yeah
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: are driven by leaders that have-- are building from a place of deficit within themselves. And I, I really
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: For sure. 100%.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: that in order to reach those heights, that those particular, financial heights, that deficit is a fantastic driver in that regard, like to, to get to that motivation, because otherwise there's a place that you get to of like, "Okay, this is enough." Now, I think where we need to reconcile, I think what needs to be reconciled for some leaders is doing the healing work, what starts to [00:48:00] happen is you start to recognize the enoughness both within you and within your company, which then could potentially create a little bit of a ceiling which, let's pretend that one of these, a leader of a publicly traded company went to one of your workshops or, did one of your programs. They have stakeholders, to speak to and to, they need to make sure that they're creating a certain profit and all those things. how do we reconcile this world, this e- economic machine that we've created? that's part of what needs to be transformed as well, is that this, this more and m- this insatiable thirst for more and more and more and more coming from a place of deficit. And w- where and how do we as a society get to a place of enoughness, while at the same time leaving room and space for the natural growth the natural evolution that is innate to our [00:49:00] humanity unfold in its own way? Is, the context
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Of course
You see, I think this is a, this is an interesting example of ... Because what you're asking in one way makes total sense
But there's something about the asking of it in that way that doesn't
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: it's subtle. Do, do, do you have a sense of what I mean?
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: and I'm, I'm,
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Because it's like you're presenting it, you're presenting it as a kind of, in a way, a little bit of a linear journey. Like, how are we gonna get this system to change Which is on one hand a totally reasonable [00:50:00] question, beyond reasonable question
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: is how to get the system to change. On the other hand is what are, what are the implications of awakened leaders economically,
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Okay. Well, that's a different question. That's a diff- maybe that's the...
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: a sense?
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Because I can't possibly answer the question the way you posed it. It's an unanswerable question.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: fair.
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: But we got to a different question now. Um, because first of all, as far as I can see, there are more and more people who are up for this And it may well be that those people at the top of those organizations aren't, and maybe who knows what their karma is and, you know, if and when they'll be ready.
Who knows? But I, I know some leaders and I work with some leaders who are in charge [00:51:00] of two hundred thousand people and are doing extraordinary work, social regeneration work, and who are deep in their own journey, which is helping them do their work, and it's a privilege to work with them. Some occasionally bring me for two days one-to-one work
Um, so you see, there's a quote by Vaclav Havel that I really think is very important. Let me just see if I can find it. I might tell you. She can find it very quickly. Um
Yeah. He said, "Hope is not the conviction that something will turn out well, but the certainty that something makes sense regardless of how it turns out." So why I find [00:52:00] that very important is that I, I feel it's for each of us to find how we make our contribution to the highest outcome we know
And to be at peace with that in a way
Because we don't know how this is all going to play out. But if we just go to the bigger picture for a moment, I'm deeply of the felt conviction also s- also amplified ... You know, there's a chapter in the new book called The Traditions Speak, which points to how many of the old wisdom traditions saw this moment humanity is at.
So I'm strongly of the felt conviction that we're at a potential turning point, and [00:53:00] more than that, that there is a whole new frequency very present Um, and I feel guided by it much of the time, and it's very new. It's a completely different paradigm. It's taking awakening to even beyond what I can find words for.
So I feel that's happening, but I have no idea how that's gonna play out. I only know that I'm trying to listen to where I can make my best contribution
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: And that to me is exactly where I sense the world is heading and
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Hmm.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: I feel the most disorientation is gonna happen because mind-- You mentioned one must find their purpose in my own words, and align with it and do their best to optimize it, let's say. I would turn that on its head and say our job as leaders, as healers, is to get out of our own way so that purpose that is meant for [00:54:00] us finds us, and that we
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Totally
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: of life itself can, can, can maximize our potentiality that life has for us, right?
A-a-as a result of having gotten out of the way. So in that regard, in
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Toot
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: regard, this is what I mean about disorientation, in that the mind is no longer the driver
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Exactly
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: need to learn to trust.
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: 100%, which is completely against their whole programming.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Precisely. Precisely
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: mean completely against. But you know, when I, with these groups at the IMD in two and a half days, they go through so ... I just got the feedback from my last program there. It's pretty amazing feedback. Um, like really they, they're writing, "I don't know how he did it, but we went so deep in two and a half days."
And these are people who came in with zero [00:55:00] experience of healing or awakening. So
Yeah. It's a completely different paradigm. It's literally a- against all programming Yeah. So I couldn't agree with you more. And that's, for instance, I know a big part of my output is training coaches, and I'm training them to work in a way that's far beyond what they know, even very experienced coaches.
To be sitting actually in that space of such deep embodied holding of space and such... This is what I learned from Thomas Hubl. Because when I asked him, "How are you doing what you're doing?" And he always said, "Well, all the information is there." And I was like, "Well, I don't see it." But [00:56:00] now I do. And people now say to me, "How are you doing that?"
Because that's so extraordinary. The more we're working in ourselves, the way you beautifully describe, the more transparent everything is. And when coaches begin to sense that, it's an amazing gateway to go through, and never ending. And for me, that just keeps getting deeper and deeper. It's a source of real wonder, real wonder, and it's effortless
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: And to that point, and in proper Nicholas Jani fashion, we can call it, meaning you're a lifelong learner. And in the initial conversation that we had, you mentioned that never before, and this is given the context of what you just shared over the past hour or so, is saying something, but never have you been learning more than you are in this moment in time, and that there's a lot that is moving through you.
Can you share a [00:57:00] little bit more of what is emerging within you in that regard?
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Thank you. Uh, I so appreciate, uh, the, the resonance of, of you, of you and us, me. Um Yeah, I think this is part of the new paradigm, 'cause I'm learning nothing from reading. I'm learning from being in such deep presence with people and supervising how people are working and seeing exactly their interior, feeling their whole interior.
And it's constantly showing me more and more about Thomas used to call it the book of life. It's like studying the book of life, but not from a cognitive perspective, from a like, "Wow, okay." It's even hard to find the [00:58:00] words for it. But I genuinely feel week by week I'm having new experiences, new understanding, but understanding that's coming from a completely felt experience, and it's, it's one of the most amazing things
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: And what are some of those nuggets of understanding that you've been discovering?
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Well, that's where it would be hard to... So, okay, um, let me just pause for a moment with that. Um
So one of the things that emerges more and more strongly And it seems to be a higher and higher integration of left and right brain, of word and energy. I've spoken about that for a long time, but it's getting more and more refined, is that sometimes in working with somebody, [00:59:00] what becomes transparent in them is an absolutely foundational program
that's sitting at the very core of their unconscious And sometimes it becomes possible to use words to name that. And it al-- I always describe it as like an acupuncture needle that's going right into the core of the nervous system. And in that moment, there's a wow. There's an extraordinary release, like some very core contraction is touched.
But you can name the program
And it often feels like we're taking an elevator down. We're getting deeper. So there's, there's a whole emotional level. [01:00:00] And the first part of my teaching is getting people to be able to unconditionally, radically include emotion without ever having to fix anything. But that's only one level because beneath that, there are these deeper layers of programming.
Okay, that's one thing. That's interesting because I wouldn't have been asked really to speak about this. Um Another is to, to what reveals itself more and more is the whole construction of the separate self, the whole construction of identity and what it means to, to live. One of my teachers calls it now living from the field rather than from identity.
And I've been very with that quite sixties phrase, I think, that you [01:01:00] have to be somebody before you can be nobody
So I'm-- we're really exploring. I have two very advanced groups of trainees. And what is, what is this somebody that becomes integrated enough that can then melt into this being more of the field? And in the center of the field is just pure love. Pure, pure love as the ultimate force, if you like
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Hmm
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: So it's quite difficult to articulate, but that's something.
Thank you
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: You're
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: for asking.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Yeah, coming back to the ground of being, and in the ground of being is love
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Hmm.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: the quality
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Hmm.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: of the picture
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: okay. So I'm also seeing ... Okay, now it's gonna go stuck. I'm also ... You know, and, and some of these [01:02:00] things might have ... I might have said I understand that before, you know, and it might not seem such a revelation, but I am seeing more and more that actually the universal core wound is the tear in the fabric of love
And that every single human being is actually looking for the repair of that tear
That's never been so clear to me as now
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Yeah. What is wisdom ultimately if not re-- wisdom is ultimately the experience of that which is so obvious, but that we can only
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Yeah.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: come to really know it through experience. To
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: To really know it.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: it. Because
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: yeah. Beautiful. Exactly. Yeah
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: we can have intellectual understanding of it, but to know it, to know it. why revelation in the way that you're experiencing it feels so, [01:03:00] um, rich, so alive, so
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Fresh
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Fresh
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: You know, it's like an actor who will tell you that some- sometimes in the 100th or 150th performance where they've said the same lines night after night, they'll have these performances where they feel they're saying things for the first time
That's a moment of revelation and total being open
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Yeah, because part of our journey, uh, into becoming unconscious, so to speak, is we live through concepts, conceptual understandings. And so we're just
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Exactly
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: always projecting, always never really
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Oh yes
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: meeting the person across from us, never really
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Exactly
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: the sky that's out there and the tree that's in front of us.
We're living through concepts
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: That's, that's [01:04:00] a, a huge part of the work, especially with leaders, is to help people understand how overdominant their thinking is Ein-- that's why I always quote Einstein, "Is your mind your master or your servant?" Because
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Hmm
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: the answer to that apparently simple question changes everything
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Yeah. interesting this is a connector because a lot of leaders talk about going back to first principles, to the, to the core foundation of the problem that they're trying to solve and the, and the core solution. This is the first principles of the first principles, in fact.
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's a big part of the process with leaders as well, again, which is something I'm understanding more and more, is to get leaders to understand that reality is 100% subjective. So everything out there is [01:05:00] out there, but how you perceive it is entirely about what's happening in here.
So bring me a problem out there you want to fix, and we'll start by looking in here, and we'll go through a whole process of integrating what's happening in here, after which your whole perception and thinking about what's out there will be transformed. So let's not try and fix what's out there
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: So true
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Mm.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Where are you sensing your energy going most towards in terms of the, the mani- the manifestations of your work has evo- has many evolutions?
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Hmm.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: speak a little bit to what the current manifestation is, and if you sense any sort of adjustments, evolutions, transformations there?
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Actually, I'm in a [01:06:00] moment of Some unknowing and a lot of deep listening to what's calling me. Where, what's really calling me. We have a very interesting event coming up here on Saturday. We managed to bring together 30 very interesting leaders from all over Italy who are coming to hear me speak with the idea of creating some kind of thought leader hub here in Italy, in Puglia.
That's one thing, but there are a number of things. But I'm, I'm in a listening, which sometimes is a bit frustrating because I'm not totally clear yet about what the next phase is. Um, yeah.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Well, this is the
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: I feel at the height of my powers, so it's like, tell me [01:07:00] where I'm to be used. Tell me where I'm to be used
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: It, it's the perfect mirror because this is precisely where leaders will find themselves as well. I feel I'm in the
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Search
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: powers, and you're asking me to drop the conceptual projections out in the world and to come
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Yeah. Yeah. And that it's not about what I want to
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Right
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: do, it's about what is being asked of me now
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and I think part of it is that you are such an, uh, enthusiastic person, and so that's life energy moving through you. So there's-- And this happens with leaders as well, what do I do with all of this life energy? Where, where can I hone
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Yes.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Where should
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Yes
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: hone it? Where does life want me to hone it?
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Exactly. Exactly
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Beautiful. Beautiful. is there anything that we haven't explored here that would be helpful to share with those listening?
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: [01:08:00] Only to iterate the single strongest point in our, in our new book, Leading in Chaos, which is that for any leader, consultant, or coach, our inner development has to be the first priority
And also that we need each other more and more We need conscious community. We need to be working with each other, supporting each other
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: To that point, those that are listening are often in the midst of their own transformational journeys, that process of, of tapping into their own core. What advice, what thought, what, what can you leave them with that might be helpful on their own journey?
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Find the right support. Find the right guides, mentors, and find [01:09:00] the right communities who don't spiritual bypass and who work with healing and awakening
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Beautifully said
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Mm-hmm. But that movement is growing and growing in
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Oh,
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: the world.
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Absolutely.
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Yeah
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: And both of our organizations are examples of that, I would say.
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Hmm,
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: Yeah. Nicholas, it's so wonderful being connected with you. You are someone who is the embodiment of that which we are pointing to, the deeper way, the deeper way of being out in the world, and, and not just being that, but then allowing the being to be made manifest out in the world and spreading that impact, being that vessel that life needs more than ever. So thank you. Thank you for
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Thank you
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: story, and, and your work with us.
nicholas-janni_3_06-18-2026_162815: Jonathan, thank you. Your openness and has allowed for such a rich exploration together. Thank you
jonathan-_1_06-18-2026_100122: [01:10:00] Beautiful.