Alan Seale joins Jonathan Hermida to explore intuition, spiritual belonging, and the journey from helping singers find their voices to guiding leaders and coaches through transformation. Through personal stories of coming out, family acceptance, and following an unexpected calling, he shares how listening more deeply can reveal who life is asking us to be—and the next step that is ours to take.
How do you learn to trust your intuition, and recognize when life is calling you toward something new?
In this episode, Alan Seale shares the personal journey behind Transformational Presence, his approach to coaching, leadership, and conscious living.
An author of seven books and founder of the Center for Transformational Presence, Alan began his career as a professional singer and voice teacher. He shares how helping people find their voices grew into helping leaders and coaches discover their purpose and the presence they bring to the world.
Together, we explore coming out within a Christian family, his mother’s journey toward acceptance and advocacy, spiritual belonging, and creating the conditions for transformation.
At the heart of Alan’s work are three questions:
What wants to happen?
Who is that asking me to be?
What is mine to do?
Whether you’re a coach, a leader, or navigating a transition in your own life, this conversation offers an invitation to listen more deeply and discover your next step.
⏰ Timestamps
🔗 Connect with Alan
Website: https://transformationalpresence.org/
Alan’s books: https://transformationalpresence.org/books/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CenterforTransformationalPresence
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alanseale
Jonathan Hermida (00:52)
So Alan, it is so good to have you here with me. I've been wanting to have this conversation for some time now. The I like to start these conversations at whatever point you want to grab it, but it's really what was, you know, how would you define who you were prior to the onset of whatever your transformational journey has been or the various transformational journeys that you've been on?
Alan Seale (01:16)
Wow. first of all, thank you for the invitation. It's great to be here with you. And yeah, I appreciate that. So it's an interesting question because I I kind of feel like this transformational journey has been my whole life. I I remember many years ago when I was living in New York and kind of in a a downtime of work coming in, and so I always I learned that's that's when I learned that
Alan Seale (01:41)
When suddenly the income drops, you're being given time for something. So pay attention to what that is. And and that was about examining some time back in my early childhood, and which was a wonderful childhood. But I remember I had this very clear memory of lying in or being held in my parents' arms and them looking at me with so much love and adoration and feeling like we haven't a clue what to do with him. And and
Alan Seale (02:11)
That that really did set up the whole journey all along for me because I feel like I was I was that child that we don't quite know what to do with him. because he keeps breaking all the molds, he keeps breaking all the all the expectations. And so it was early on in my childhood that I realized that there was some kind of intuitive thing going on inside of me that I assumed for so long everyone had.
Alan Seale (02:40)
And then realized, maybe not. Maybe people aren't sensing the same things that I am. And and shut that down. I and so then fast forward until I'm in my late twenties and I'd finished graduate school and I have two master's degrees and one in church music and one in voice. And and I was working in a church and sitting there in a Sunday morning service as a musician and feeling like, you know, I can't do this anymore. There's something more that's who I am that's bigger than this.
Alan Seale (03:09)
it was a wonderful church, wonderful people, but no, it was time for a shift. And that was began the journey of exploring beyond my Christian heritage. my father was a minister and quite well known internationally in the church, and and so it was a step beyond that to see what is it that's calling. And I had already begun taking a meditation class and
Alan Seale (03:38)
began to explore beyond mainstream Christianity and then soon after that moved to New York City. And that kind of opened this door to various teachers and various forms of study and exploration. and in the in the midst of all that is also when I came out and which was its own journey with my with my parents and my my father who was just amazing and
Alan Seale (04:07)
wonderful and my mother was like, my God, what's wrong with you? And so, we we had a little
Jonathan Hermida (04:10)
Yeah.
Alan Seale (04:12)
a little dance there that we ha as I said, we all live to tell about it, but some of us aren't telling about it. that's so
Jonathan Hermida (04:18)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and Alan, I I'd
Jonathan Hermida (04:20)
actually I want to jump in here because there's so many things that you've already mentioned that I want to make sure we double click into. one one of
Alan Seale (04:26)
Okay.
Jonathan Hermida (04:27)
them is when when you were when you were a young man and you were intuiting things that you thought that you took for granted, that you thought everybody intuited, what what were some of
Alan Seale (04:33)
Right.
Jonathan Hermida (04:34)
those things?
Alan Seale (04:35)
Well, I think the real turning point there. there were lots of moments when I kept sensing something about somebody and nobody else seemed to be noticing, and then it would turn out to be there's something going on here. and but the the big turning moment was my parents were away on some kind of church weekend meeting, and the woman who always was babysitting for my sister and I was there with us for the weekend and in the middle of the night the telephone rang.
Alan Seale (05:03)
no, in the middle of the night first, I a fire truck went past our house, turned the corner, and continued on up the street. And I knew right then Mrs. Heaton's house is on fire. And 30 seconds later the phone rang. And it was her next door neighbor saying, Legally, your house is on fire. And so that was kind of the moment where I thought, okay, there's something here that I need to just be aware of. And maybe this is not something you talk about to other people in a small town in central Kentucky, you know.
Alan Seale (05:32)
in the early 60s. So
Jonathan Hermida (05:34)
Ha ha.
Alan Seale (05:35)
you know, it was and so yeah that was that was kind of the turning point moment and probably also the moment that I kind of shut it down some to
Jonathan Hermida (05:44)
Mm.
Alan Seale (05:45)
at least just let that be in my own awareness but be very careful. and it wasn't until in my 20s when I started to feel like no I have to give this a voice. I have to acknowledge that
Alan Seale (05:59)
There is more to all of us, not just to me. It's not like I was special. It's like there's more here for all of us if we'll just pay attention.
Jonathan Hermida (06:08)
Hmm. What made you want to shut it down?
Alan Seale (06:11)
the the strange looks from people are like, Why are you why are you asking that question? Or why are you just this feeling and this awareness that nobody else talks about this? It seemed so natural to me. but realizing everyone else was very it was just very rational. and and certain things at that time, particularly in the American South, things you talked about and things you didn't, and this is what's accepted and this is what's not. And
Alan Seale (06:41)
This is how you fit in and this is how you don't. And you know, it was just that era and that time, yeah.
Jonathan Hermida (06:50)
Yeah, yeah. Well, speaking of the American South and growing up in a basically a Christian household, w when you found out you were gay, when you realized when you had that aha moment, what was happening internally for you? 'Cause I can imagine it's quite a scary prospect.
Alan Seale (07:04)
Well, I I
Alan Seale (07:05)
I think I knew I was gay from the moment I was born, but I didn't know what that was. And then for years I you I you keep especially growing up in that environment, and that's certainly not anything anybody was talking about then. although now I look back and can see some others but you know that's another story. But but yeah, I you you think you're the only one. You think, well, how come I'm
Alan Seale (07:32)
actually more interested in the boys than the girls. And but I'm not really a sports guy and I'm, the artistic type and the and whatever. But you just think you're the only one. And then I remember when we moved to Indianapolis after my freshman year in high school. And so it was going from a small town to a big city. And that was a wonderful shift to kind of open my world to something more and a huge high school. And
Alan Seale (08:00)
Yet in my high school that was not not anything anybody would ever talk about. And I just kept going, Okay, I this is just me and maybe I'll grow out of this. And then in college is the same. I went to school in in Leicester, Kentucky at Transylvania University. really wonderful liberal arts school and there was one person in the school that I kind of knew was gay, but it's like, No, you just do don't go there.
Alan Seale (08:30)
And then I went to graduate school at Westminster Choir College in Princeton, New Jersey, which was a very gay school. And and I I thought, okay, fine, when I get there, then I'll gonna deal with this and and be able to come out. And I didn't have any problem with it inside of myself, but I knew nobody talks about this, so don't talk about it, you know. so I got there and then realized that what being gay was at that school at that time was
Alan Seale (09:00)
was very campy and very it just it was not at all who I was. and I thought, nope, nah, I'll just stay in the closet a little while longer here. And so it wasn't until the the summer after I finished graduate school that I that actually came out.
Jonathan Hermida (09:16)
Yeah.
Alan Seale (09:17)
But it did not come out to my parents for several years after that. And I kept thinking, you know, I'll I'll tell them when there's a reason to tell them, when I have somebody in my life or there's and then I at a certain point I realized
Alan Seale (09:30)
I'm not having anybody in my life because I don't wanna deal with this with my parents. And so my parents had had been to visit me and I realized all we're talking about is the weather and what we're gonna do today and not anything else. And I th that's not that's not who we are together. And so I wrote them a long letter and and those days you put it in the mail.
Alan Seale (09:55)
And so and it got there in record time, of course. When I thought, Okay, I'll have a few days to kind of get and then and so, yeah, in record time and and the phone call came and my father was just like, This is all fine, just come home, we love you. And my mother was really not knowing what to do with this and then wrote me a letter saying, I just asked that you seek good medical help and it's like, boy, this is where we're starting. And but I went home then I was
Alan Seale (10:25)
Back to Kentucky and was there for three weeks, which is a really long three weeks, because we had to talk about this every day. You know, it was just like this was the thing. But, you know, all that said, my my mother took this incredible journey. By the time I got home, she realized, okay, and there's nothing wrong with me. I'm not sick. and because she she went to the library and started reading. She started doing research to find who is my son? What is this? And
Alan Seale (10:54)
Over the next maybe 10 years, they moved to Nashville. My father was the president of the Historical Society for the Church Internationally, and they I I came home to visit one time, and my parents were just talking about this Tuesday night group, and I thought how amazing this Tuesday night group was. Finally said, Who is the Tuesday night group? it's the gay and lesbian group at our church. And
Jonathan Hermida (11:18)
No way.
Alan Seale (11:19)
they go to this podluck every Tuesday night. I'm like,
Alan Seale (11:22)
Okay, you know, something has shifted here. And and within another year or so my mother was was the liaison between the members of the church and the church board. There was no gay marriage then, but she was the liaison to negotiate doing gay union ceremonies in the church. And I'm just like, how did this happen? And then she got very involved in P FLAG and it just yeah. And sh then when I met my husband, she
Alan Seale (11:53)
Totally f they've totally fell in love with him. And she just talked about her two sons. And you know, it it it became really amazing. She became a big advocate in the church. but she had to take her own journey. And I give her enormous credit for that, for just her growth in that time. And and my father's growth too in different ways. I mean, he wasn't struggling with having a gay son, but but he he he he
Alan Seale (12:21)
there are things he wanted to understand more. And they were amazing.
Jonathan Hermida (12:26)
That's incredible. Very unique, certainly at the time.
Alan Seale (12:28)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alan Seale (12:30)
Yeah. the it's the Christian Church Disciples of Christ, which is very strong in the South and the Midwest and and the West Coast. It's a very these days especially very progressive Protestant not denomination, and very LGBTQ friendly and open and it's yeah. But that was in the six or in the seventies, you know, in early eighties. It's a different world.
Alan Seale (12:57)
And then AIDS was just coming and that was that a whole other journey. and being in the arts in New York at that point. yeah, it was it was a big ride.
Jonathan Hermida (13:10)
It was a big ride. And what was, you mentioned meditation, so you were going into practices and teachings outside of the church. What was your relationship to the Christian church as that as you began exploring other modalities?
Alan Seale (13:22)
Well, I
Alan Seale (13:23)
I I still I I always then and still today I recognize it's it's my heritage. It's where I came from. And there is a part of me that is still rooted there. even though my sense of spirituality is much more universal. in in nineteen ninety three to ninety five I did a two year seminary program in New York at the New Seminary to become ordained as an interfaith minister.
Alan Seale (13:50)
And so we studied all the religions of the world, and that became much more my foundation. and yet there continued to be this longing for finding a place where on Sundays I could feel at home. and continuing to work off and on as a church musician through those years, and you know, just trying to find my place there. so it's
Alan Seale (14:20)
It's it's very interesting to now recently actually having found a church that feels like, my gosh, this this is where th this is maybe where I belong now, that is very open and accepting of a a very broad kind of sense of faith journey. but that was I I've spent so much of my life in a sense ministering to others and I longed for a Sunday morning that I could
Alan Seale (14:49)
Sit in the pew and be anonymous and just be ministered to and be a part of a collective spiritual experience that I was not leading, but yet felt like it was being led in a in an open, inclusive, embracing way, holding space for everyone in their own journeys.
Jonathan Hermida (15:12)
And you ended up finding that.
Alan Seale (15:14)
Yeah, just very recently. And that's I'm just
Alan Seale (15:21)
Marveling at that. Yeah.
Jonathan Hermida (15:23)
Yeah. So good. So good.
Alan Seale (15:25)
Yeah.
Jonathan Hermida (15:26)
So then you after graduate school you begin, I would assume, your music career. Yeah.
Alan Seale (15:32)
Yeah, I was when I finished my graduate work, I was there was a position open on the voice faculty at Westminster Clark College and I was invited to audition for that and there were others auditioning as well, but I got the job. So I was on the voice faculty there, straight out of graduate school for the next five years, and then at the end of that time left and shortly thereafter moved to New York City. and opened a voice studio there. I had a nice performing career.
Alan Seale (16:00)
But the bigger love was teaching. And within a few years my studio in New York really grew a lot and my s my singers were singing in leading roles at the Metropolitan Opera and most of the major opera houses of the world and leading roles on Broadway and I'd go to Carnegie Hall and see my students on the stage and that was a pretty amazing thing, you know? as a technique teacher and just building the voice and that was that was a wonderful thing until I
Alan Seale (16:29)
As I approached forty, I started to feel like, I'm really good at this, but I'm not learning anything anymore. There's always something more to learn, of course, but at a certain point I realized, I I know how I need to keep learning and growing myself. And I also didn't want to live in New York City forever. But as long as I was teaching singers at that level, I had to live in New York. And so I heard about coaching in the late nineties and I thought, hm.
Alan Seale (16:59)
I think I want to go find out what that is. So I went to my first three-day coach training program, Coach Training Institute. It was just a an introductory program and came home and saying, Yep, that's what's next. And I was I'd already been ordained as as an underfaith minister. I was already teaching workshops for performers and understanding energy and how that moved through them in performance and knowing who they were and what is it that they have to bring to the stage. And so it was already kind of moving inside of me.
Alan Seale (17:29)
So I finished the first major coach training program in 2001. And by 2003, I had completely shifted my income to coaching and sold the apartment in New York and left. And that was the beginning of a journey that I never ever would have imagined. Because I thought, well, do life coaching, help people kind of find their way and get their lives together. And I wrote I'd already written two books at that point, in more personal development.
Alan Seale (17:56)
And then the third and fourth book started moving towards leadership development because it felt like, well, you d we develop ourselves, but what are we going to do with that? How what is the difference we're going to make in the world? Where are we going with it? And so as that as those third and fourth books were coming out, I started getting invitations to come other places to teach and teach workshops. And then I was a part of a an
Alan Seale (18:25)
An advanced coach training program that wasn't really. But in in in Europe it was kind of an experimental or pilot program. But in that program, I met a s coach from Sweden who was running a coach training program in Stockholm. So she invited me to come and lead a a class on intuition for the coaches, and that's cool. I went there. I from there we went to the Nordic Coaching Conference. in a breakout session, I met a coach from the southern part of Sweden, just doing an exercise together. She hired me as her coach.
Alan Seale (18:55)
She said, Would you come to my coaching school and lead a workshop? That opened the door to Europe. and starting really in 2007, 2008, that was in 2006, pretty much all my work moved to Europe. And
Jonathan Hermida (19:11)
Mm.
Alan Seale (19:11)
I was I was in Europe anywhere from six to ten times a year, usually for two for two weeks each time. I created the transformational presence coaching program and then
Alan Seale (19:25)
leadership program from that and it just it took on a life of its own. I just kept saying yes. Whatever the invitation was, I just would say yes and and would never ever would have imagined any of this.
Jonathan Hermida (19:38)
Yeah.
Alan Seale (19:40)
and it's been an incredible journey.
Jonathan Hermida (19:43)
Yeah, what a ride. What was it like to shift identities from musician or teacher to to coach?
Alan Seale (19:48)
There yeah, there
Alan Seale (19:49)
was there wasn't a shift in identities because and I know a lot of people think, How did you go from here to here? But to me they they seemed so the bridge was quite natural. because when you teach singers, especially for singers the instrument is inside the body. So my teacher used to always say to me, You teach the whole person, not just the singer. And
Alan Seale (20:16)
As my own spiritual journey continued, there were lots of conversations that happened in lessons in addition to about the singing. I was still really they were coming for singing, but it just began to open. And that's the my students were the first people in the in the spirituality classes I was teaching. so it it felt like this natural bridge. My sole mission is I liberate and empower. And for years I was doing that helping.
Alan Seale (20:46)
Singers liberate their voices, set their voices free, and empowering them to have major careers, at least helping them empower themselves, because you know, that's how it is. and so it felt like I'm just moving from one kind of full expression of being into presence, which is very much also how do you walk on the stage and what's happening there. I felt like that.
Alan Seale (21:14)
Every time I walked on the stage, whether to speak or to teach, I felt like my whole singing career is behind me. I learned I to be quite at home here,
Jonathan Hermida (21:24)
Right.
Alan Seale (21:24)
on the stage and to and also to to work with whatever shows up in the moment 'cause when you're in live performance things happen, you know? so
Jonathan Hermida (21:32)
Sure.
Alan Seale (21:35)
yeah, but it's so it to me it was it felt n very natural. And even though I I
Alan Seale (21:43)
I don't sing very often anymore. but I do now have a a singing gig coming up, which is kind of a surprising thing. Even that though, I didn't miss the singing because I've have expression, my voice has expression, my being has expression through writing, through teaching, through now mentoring other leaders who are doing big things and and supporting transformation in our world.
Jonathan Hermida (22:10)
Yeah, that's so beautiful. You've written seven books in total. where where was where did the inspiration for the first one come?
Alan Seale (22:18)
The first one, intuitive living, it it came out of my own journey. And it took me three years to write that book. I didn't know if it would ever be published. I just needed to write it for me. It was just my story and my kind of journey of how I developed spiritually. and yeah, so it was I just needed to write that book for me. And then actually I was
Alan Seale (22:46)
Doing these evenings called Spirit Circles in my apartment in New York once a month. And an editor from one of the big publishing houses came to to the circle one night and she said, and she saw this little kind of booklet that I'd written on my table, and she picks it up and she says, Have you ever thought about making this into a book? I you know, I think that and I said, Well, actually I'm working on that. And she said, Well, I'd like to see that. And she said, You know, I c I can't sell this.
Alan Seale (23:15)
my publisher, it wasn't what she was doing, but she said, I'll I'll help you find an agent. So she got me into an agent. As it turned out, nobody took that book after a year, and I realized it's because I have to publish it myself, which it was about me owning my own work. And and those was in those days there was nothing for self-publishing. I mean there was vanity vanity publishing and it was considered a very not such a good thing. But it just felt like I need to get this out there.
Alan Seale (23:45)
And a friend I I I published the book myself, borrowed money to do that and got it out there and a friend of mine gave a copy to a buyer at Barnes and Noble and they bought a hundred copies and twenty five hundred copies later, I circulated the book again to publishers to see now let's see what will happen. And nothing. And then so a year later when when the
Alan Seale (24:14)
The the distributor owed me ten thousand dollars because they were notorious for not not paying independent publishers then. so they just didn't pay. And I I was out of money. I couldn't, I just couldn't do this anymore. And so I had this kind of ranting at the universe saying, I'm done. If you want this book to have a life, you gotta do it. I'm finished. And three days later, I got a call from a publishing company saying, you know, your book kind of
Alan Seale (24:42)
got buried under a pile here, but we like it. If it's not sold it, we'd like to buy it. And off it went. So intuitive living was my own journey. Soul mission grew out of that as well, which was the second book, Soul Mission, Life Vision. at that point there were no books on the shelf about life purpose. Who are you? Why are you here? Now there are lots and lots, but that was kind of the first one. And
Jonathan Hermida (25:07)
Mm.
Alan Seale (25:08)
then out of that came the manifestation wheel which I had
Alan Seale (25:12)
learned as the medicine wheel from the Lakota tribe through Rick Garrow, who was a very important spiritual teacher for me in New York. but there was nothing written about the about the medicine wheel. It was completely an oral tradition. And so I I just as I the more I worked with that wheel and started manifesting so many things in my life, I realized this the world needs this. This needs to be out there.
Alan Seale (25:41)
And so I I turned the medicine wheel into the manifestation wheel just to bring it into a more a language more suitable for today. kept the eight houses the same, just gave them again more modern names. and that became the third book. And from there was began the shift into the leadership work.
Jonathan Hermida (26:06)
Interesting. Interesting. And w what was your your writing process like? Did it feel arduous? Did it feel, you know, yeah, how did you get into flow states to be able to complete
Alan Seale (26:14)
It
Jonathan Hermida (26:15)
these books?
Alan Seale (26:15)
every book has been a completely different journey. So people ask me, how do you write a book? I say, I can't tell you. Everyone has been different. it's I I mean, I certain things are the same for all of them. I need to write in chunks of time. I can't just like take a half an hour and write and then go do something else. Or no, I need afternoons, half days, or several days in a row. it's the best for me. But that first book.
Alan Seale (26:41)
Again, it took three years because I was writing an in-between everything else in my life, not knowing if it would ever be published. Soul Mission Life Vision took probably a year. That one was it was it was a bigger journey of in my own process, I think, of writing that book and and understanding more, something more, learning something more about how to put things into words. in
Alan Seale (27:09)
in a way that people understand to make it understandable for for everyone. the manifestation wheel, I wrote that in six weeks. and that book wrote itself easily. each chapter was very self-contained. So the other books, the chapters all you know were like this. And so but that was easy. And then but each one has been a a different process. After that the book started
Alan Seale (27:37)
I'm thinking I'm writing one book, even Soul Mission Life Vision. I thought I was writing a book on paradigm shifting. I had a contract from the same publisher as Intuitive Living. And the the publisher came to see me and she said, What are you working on now? And I said, I I'm gonna teach this class on paradigm shifting. And she said, Well, send me the outline. I sent her the outline, she said, This will be your book proposal. Fine, write that book. But the book wrote itself as Soul Mission Life Vision. So I remember again, those were the days where you put the manuscript in the mailbox, you know.
Alan Seale (28:07)
Hope that it and I just I put it in thinking, I hope they like this because it's not what they asked for, but this is what came. And they loved it. And so it was fine. But the writing process for me is very much something just starts flowing through me and I just go.
Jonathan Hermida (28:25)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alan Seale (28:26)
and sometimes the first drafts for parts are really easy and sometimes it's arduous to get that first draft. Once there's a first draft, it flows.
Jonathan Hermida (28:36)
Hmm. What were the folks that, in the workshops, the ones that were meeting you and were wanting to bring you into their coach training organizations, what were they picking up from you and and what were the topics that you were sharing? I know you mentioned intuition being one of them that had this work
Alan Seale (28:52)
Yeah.
Jonathan Hermida (28:52)
begin to spread throughout Europe.
Alan Seale (28:54)
Because it was such this was such an intuitive approach to coaching and then ultimately to leadership as well, but also such a big picture view on an energetic level, understanding life as energy in motion. And nobody was talking about life as energy in motion at that point. and leadership was still much more a very rational, heady process, and coaching.
Alan Seale (29:24)
was much more transactional. you here's the goal, here's what we want to accomplish, here are the assignments, just you know move through and and I just thought, you know, that's not it. There is something much, much bigger than that. And certainly within transformational work, transactional has a part there. I mean it is we do need to get things done, but it's within a much, much bigger approach. So I think that, I mean, kind of going back to
Alan Seale (29:53)
childhood and and being the the the kid who nobody knew what to do with because I always I had this very big understanding of things just innately of not I couldn't put that into words but somehow I just could understand what was what's going on here in a much bigger picture. And so that that initial work was very soul-based, very intuitively but intuitive based and
Alan Seale (30:22)
Very much a sense of energy work. And that's what was attracting those people initially. and it was it's interesting that, you know, Sweden at that point especially was still very kind of heady place. That's where it started. And then it shifted very quickly to the Netherlands. And the Netherlands, which is also a very heavy country, but yet they were also the adventurous ones. When you look at the artists who, you know, started out in the Netherlands, they they were
Alan Seale (30:52)
very bold and the Dutch people were the s the explorers and they're so they're also out-of-the-box thinkers. And the the Netherlands became the the center point of my work in the world. there are more graduates of my work there now than anywhere and and I've taught there more than any I've worked in 17 countries, but the Netherlands is has long been the home base. And so it was this just this awareness that there's something more.
Alan Seale (31:21)
There's something more. There is a bigger way to look. There is another approach. that kept drawing people in. And I think also the authenticity of it, of recognizing who are we? I mean, to me, the the two biggest questions that we need to be asking is
Alan Seale (31:49)
What wants to happen in the world and who's that asking me to be? How's it asking me to show up? the two biggest questions for all of us together are who do we choose to be and who do we choose to be together?
Jonathan Hermida (32:02)
Yeah.
Alan Seale (32:03)
if you know, if we would just press pause and ask those questions, the whole world would be a different place to live.
Alan Seale (32:16)
so it's i I think to come back to your question, it's it was that heart centered, soul centered, intuitive centered, energy centered approach. The fact that I talk about it from a consciousness perspective, a spirituality perspective, and a quantum physics perspective. So there's there's ways for different people to connect.
Alan Seale (32:40)
And because to me that's we can call it God or call it the quantum field. I it's it's the same thing to me. and so you use the language that is appropriate for the the people you're talking to at the time and invite them in to this more expanded way of thinking. It's it's also I think another piece of it. I mean coaching has always been not telling people what to do, helping them to discover that. But transformational presence is not about telling people what to think, it's
Alan Seale (33:10)
Expanding how they think, how they perceive, how they move in the world, understanding how you show up changes everything. Presence.
Jonathan Hermida (33:20)
How how would
Jonathan Hermida (33:21)
you dis that's beautiful. How would you transf sorry, how would you define transformational presence?
Alan Seale (33:27)
It's creating the optimal space for transformation or a greater potential to unfold. and I think a bit like tending a garden. when you plant a seed, there's nothing you can do to make that seed grow. But there are lots of things you can do to encourage that seed to grow. And so you plant the seed in rich soil, and then you make sure it has plenty of water and it has the right amount of light, and you pull the weeds and
Alan Seale (33:56)
Click, give it space to breathe and to spread out and to grow. You tend the garden. Transformational presence is really about tending the garden of a culture, of a society, of an organization, of a family, of your own life. Tending the garden and creating a space in which amazing things can begin to unfold.
Jonathan Hermida (34:19)
And what are the practic what does that look like practically for somebody that is in a leadership position tending to their garden in order to to watch it grow in the way that they intend for it to grow?
Alan Seale (34:29)
So it means learning to listen intuitively. it means to learning to recognize that the leader of whatever the project is or the organization is actually the next potential that's waiting to unfold. And the person with the title of leader, their job is to listen, sense, and feel into this energy that is emerging. It's trying to tell us something, it's trying to show us.
Alan Seale (34:57)
It will show us everything we need if we'll pay attention. So it's learning to do that. That's the leader's job. And then to translate that to the people that they're leading. But it doesn't stop there. The next stage is to help the people that you're leading also learn to pay attention to that potential. So that the leader can have the freedom and the safety when somebody asks the question. The leader can say, I I don't know. Let's go find out together.
Alan Seale (35:28)
And that not being the first step in losing their job because they don't have all the answers, We until we can move into the place where we are not expecting our leaders to have all the answers and make the decisions and just show us where to go. or we're giving them, handing them responsibilities that are not possible for any one person to do. It's all of us together.
Alan Seale (35:56)
And the more all of us together are learning to listen and sense and feel what is here, what is emerging, what is asking for our attention, and then who's it asking me to be? How's it asking me to show up? And then what's it asking me to do? If you start with those three questions, what wants to happen, and recognizing it's not what what it's not what do I want, or what do you want, or what do we want, it's there's something that's trying to now shift.
Alan Seale (36:23)
Something that's trying to transform. There's something that's trying to get our attention. We say a problem is not something to be solved. It's a message to be listened to. It's just showing you there's something, something's not working here because there's something else that wants to happen now. So
Jonathan Hermida (36:37)
Mm.
Alan Seale (36:37)
pay attention to that. And then ask it. Ask that potential, who do you need for me to be? How do how do I need to show up right now to start moving this forward? What is the role that is mine to play here?
Alan Seale (36:53)
And then ask the third question. And what is what is mine to do here? What are you asking me to do? We tend to start with that third question, and we miss out on enormous information from the f by not asking the first two. And
Jonathan Hermida (37:09)
Yeah.
Alan Seale (37:09)
we're trying we keep trying to push the energy instead of let the energy pull us.
Jonathan Hermida (37:15)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. How do you then, the what wants to happen, somebody's tapped in and they're sensing into it and okay, this this is I'm feeling into this, great. The what needs to what what what do I need to do? Okay, great, now I'm clear, I I'm activated. The who do I need to be peace th is one can articulate those being states, those deeper states that are needed in order for this emergence to then
Jonathan Hermida (37:45)
manifest itself out in the world, but it can also be a journey and a process to actually fully, completely embody that state. So how does that how does that how do you support somebody to really not just say the word, not just feel it in a moment, but really own it, be it, totally and completely?
Alan Seale (38:05)
Yeah, so when we ask that question, who's it asking me to be? it's to recognize maybe it it's a a talent that you have, it's asking you to bring forward, or maybe it's just asking you to be creative, maybe it's asking you to be honest, maybe it's actually asking you to be the truth teller, maybe it's ask it's it it's almost like giving you an assignment in presence. And
Alan Seale (38:29)
Then when you have that, once you had that assignment, you have this sense of, yeah, this is who it's asking how it's asking me to show up. And how's it asking me to show up is maybe an easier question for many people to get than who's it asking me to be, but it's the same the same thing. but once you have that sense of, it's it's asking me to show up as the truth teller right now. Okay, that's my job. In this, at least for the next hour, whatever that is, you know.
Alan Seale (38:56)
I talk with leaders a lot about heading into the meeting to ask intuitively before you walk in. So, what am I to be the steward for in this meeting? What is the energy I'm being asked to hold, to carry here? And then that begins to shape how you're showing up there, what you're bringing to the table. When that is clear, when you understand this is what wants to happen, or at least that's the direction we're being asked to move, and this is.
Alan Seale (39:23)
The role it's asking me to play, it's this is how it's asking me to show up. What my next step is becomes very clear. And that's it really important about that third question. What's it asking me to do? Because it's not a huge plan. It's just next step. This is what it's asking me to do next. Because we have to understand that in today's world, it's really important that we have a sense of the direction we're moving. Not necessarily the specific d destination, because that will continue to.
Alan Seale (39:52)
Shift as well. It's certainly not a specific outcome, but that's a direction that we need to be moving. And then we keep noticing here something's bubbling up here. That's where we go next. And we step into that spot and we start taking care of what we're being asked for there. And then we start to notice over there there's something now happening. That's where we go next. It's learning to follow the energy. And that doesn't happen overnight. It's a practice. It's it's beginning to work with this and
Alan Seale (40:20)
You there'll be times when you think I thought it was that, no, it's not. But you begin to learn how that works inside of you. I always would will tell people I I can't teach you how to use your own intuition, but I can guide you to find out how your system works. Because we all get the we we get the information, we get the the signals in our own unique ways. So it's just knowing
Alan Seale (40:48)
This is how it is. I know right now that's exactly where I need to go because my whole system is telling me that.
Jonathan Hermida (40:57)
What what's the biggest challenge you you s have seen leaders face in the journey to embody more of this transformational presence?
Alan Seale (41:06)
fear from others who are very st trapped in a rational state still. Tra trapped in the in an old paradigm of what leadership is and in a we have to make things happen mindset. instead of just stepping back and saying there's there's something that's trying to happen here. If we just step back and let it talk to us, what is that? It's it's also the
Alan Seale (41:35)
The thing we don't have time for that. We don't have time for that. We don't have time for that. When in fact the more you this becomes your way of operating, it actually speeds everything up. Because things get really clear and you just that's where we go next. I d I don't I can't tell you why yet, but let's go there and we're gonna find out. so there's a huge trust factor that understandably for people whom this is a very foreign thing, it's
Alan Seale (42:04)
There's a there's a journey there. it's also recognizing that people make shifts through experience, not because you tell them something. And so the leaders who are wanting to work much more in this way, it's a it's on them to create spaces in which they can help people make discoveries. If I tell you something, it still belongs to me and now you had that information. But when you discovered, it's yours.
Alan Seale (42:35)
And as people have experiences and make discoveries, it's in training trainers always I say it's your job is not to not to get your people to have a particular experience. That's called manipulation. Your job is to create a space and a structure through which they have experiences, they make discoveries. You can't control what those will be, but they will be theirs then.
Alan Seale (43:04)
And they'll be real and there'll be something they can run with because it happened inside of them. and we all ha we have li experiences in life that those moments when we can look back to 10 years, 20 years later and go, that moment, that was a moment that something turned for me. and so our job as transformational leaders, as transformational coaches, is to create containers, create spaces, create a garden in which people can.
Alan Seale (43:35)
have an experience, can make a discovery, can learn something themselves, can open another door in their awareness. And together we move forward. It's also when we're asking that question, what wants to happen, if you have five people in the room, there might be five different ideas that come in that moment. And that's okay. We're looking for the but what's the thread that ties them together? It's the thread we're going to follow.
Jonathan Hermida (44:02)
And if if you have leaders in the room that are tuned in, you tend to land on the place of, yeah, that is what what is wanting to happen here. There's clarity.
Alan Seale (44:08)
Yeah. Yep. Yep.
Alan Seale (44:12)
Yep. And it's, I think another piece for the the more aware leaders who are struggling with less aware is to say, would you be willing to to go this to go walk down this road just for the next three days? Just for three days. After three days we can go back, we can do whatever. But would you be willing for three days or the next hour or the next week, whatever is the appropriate time frame? But but giving people
Alan Seale (44:38)
Also, permission to try something and then knowing they can turn around and come back if they want. They almost never
Jonathan Hermida (44:46)
Yeah.
Alan Seale (44:46)
do. But I I find that in coaching all the time when we draw a line and say, you know, are you willing to step across this line just for a minute, just for one minute, and let's just see what it feels like on the other side. And that it's they hardly ever will come back.
Jonathan Hermida (45:04)
What have you what have you found but you've given them permission. What have you found
Alan Seale (45:04)
But you've given them permission. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.
Jonathan Hermida (45:08)
to be the characteristics of the types of leaders that are most drawn to this type of work? 'Cause it's really not for all leaders. Not everybody's oriented in this in this way.
Alan Seale (45:17)
No, it puts people who are committed, they want to make a difference. They they have some sense that there's something bigger in the world, that there is a bigger picture. They have a sense already of everything is connected to everything else. Because that's the fundamental worldview that shapes everything. Do you believe that everything is connected to everything else, or do you believe that everything is separate? And it's one of the things, the first things that we talk about in the transformational presence work is helping people learn how to listen for that.
Alan Seale (45:47)
Because that's telling you how to speak with them in in your first conversations. If they believe everything is separated, then okay, we're we're in a very transactional world here. And what are the ways that we begin to build a bridge slowly, gently, to invite another awareness? If you're talking to somebody who is already in the place of everything is connected, everything else, then let's fly. Let's go.
Jonathan Hermida (46:12)
Yeah. Yeah. It's you're you're at another pivot or have been, transitioning again into another chapter of your life, so to speak, away from the hands on facil facilitation and teaching, right? Is that accurate? Yeah. What what what what began
Alan Seale (46:25)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I had planned
Jonathan Hermida (46:29)
to shift for you there?
Alan Seale (46:31)
Well, I had planned to come off the road in twenty twenty two. but then COVID happened and that I came off the road quickly and I I was supposed to be in Europe nine times in twenty twenty and of course it didn't happen at all. so at first I moved everything to Zoom and and I'm very at home on Zoom and teaching there and i it's it would that's fine. But after another year it was sort of like, you know, no, it really is time.
Alan Seale (47:01)
I had been mentoring it's it's now fourteen leaders from eight different countries who have taken on the work and are continuing to to lead this work. So I'd been mentoring them for a few years anyway, and it's I just knew it's time now to hand it on to them. and that was a wonderful relief for me to step back from that, especially from the travel. COVID that was a huge gift of COVID.
Alan Seale (47:27)
For me, because I I knew that the travel was taking a toll, but I wasn't aware of how big a toll. and so it's offered more time for me to do more one-on-one mentoring and coaching, and I love that. And working with some really interesting clients now who are doing big things and in their own ways. I the the people who have been attracted to this work always, the the red thread has been.
Alan Seale (47:57)
They want to make a difference. And
Jonathan Hermida (47:59)
Mm.
Alan Seale (47:59)
they may be artists and healers and they may be CEOs of big companies. It's everything in between, but they just know that there's something, that there's a calling, there's something that they're here for, there's a reason they're here. They may not know what that is yet. We do the work to help them come to that very clearly, what that soul mission is. which is not ever about something to do, it's about how you're showing up. It's about how how you're being asked to show up.
Alan Seale (48:27)
energetically. So it's been a wonderful gift in that way. it's given me more given me more time to write as well. So I write once a week on Substack and it's a my writing is sort of shifted out leadership and coaching focus into it just my journey. And what is it what is conscious living about? and conscious leading, recognizing that
Alan Seale (48:56)
You will lead how you live. And so until you're living in a really conscious way, your your leadership is not gonna be so much there. Same with coaching. and it's also another big focus for me in my writing is writing about things that we're not so comfortable as a society talking about. just the personal journey. And wanting to create I've written a lot about grieving, I've written a lot about
Alan Seale (49:26)
Dealing with disappointment and and and just navigating life. because we keep that separate. Here's what we show the world, and here's all the stuff that's going on in here. there's not so many safe places for that. And so my hope is that the more I bring that into the open, the more people start to feel like maybe maybe I can't talk about this, even if it's just a one or two other people. But it opens a door. And this inner journey.
Alan Seale (49:56)
The more normal that can be in the mainstream world, in the collective, the better off we're gonna be.
Jonathan Hermida (50:03)
Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think all of us want to feel seen and understood. And part of the reason we don't share is because we're afraid that others will not see us or understand us and will therefore reject us. And so the more people that are courageously and vulnerably sharing out in the world, you know, the personal anecdotes, the real stories of being a human being, you know, you you start to it brings people together. It helps people to to be like
Alan Seale (50:30)
Yes.
Jonathan Hermida (50:31)
I'm not alone, you know.
Alan Seale (50:34)
I also, especially when I was I didn't do a lot of work in organizations, but but I did some and I did a lot of work with the global leaderships teams of IKEA for a few years. And I would always talk about being authentic, the importance of being authentic, and how authentic doesn't have to mean personal. It doesn't mean you have to tell your personal stories. You don't have to tell the story about something you're not comfortable talking about yet. It just means
Alan Seale (51:04)
You need to be able to be to authentically show up as who you are. And that seemed to make a difference for a lot of people because they were equating those two words. Authentic means I gotta tell you my story. I don't want to tell you my story.
Jonathan Hermida (51:16)
Right, right, right.
Alan Seale (51:17)
You don't have to tell me your story. and for me as I I I try to be make it clear the kind of thing that's going on inside of me without I don't need to share the details of that. That's not important.
Alan Seale (51:34)
But by willing being willing to say, I the loss that's been in my life in the last few years has been huge. And to be able to just let that be in the open opens a door for somebody else to touch that inside themselves. And to be able to say to your colleague at work, you know, things are kind of tough at home right now. I'm doing okay. But can you just be aware that I'm kind of navigating? Don't need to tell you any more.
Jonathan Hermida (52:03)
That's right. That's right. Yeah, that's a beautiful distinction. Cause it's right. You you you don't need to be sharing all the, you know, details and and all of that. It's really about just being real with what you're going through, generally speaking, and and being able to voice that to others. Voice that bring people
Alan Seale (52:19)
Yes.
Jonathan Hermida (52:19)
to the fold and and help them to see that you're human too and dealing with all the same things that we all humans have to deal with and contend with.
Alan Seale (52:29)
Absolutely. Absolutely. And opening a door that that person that you share that with might feel more comfortable coming to you later and saying, notice you're having a hard time today. is there anything you need? Can I do something for you? Because if you're keeping it all shut off, everybody sees that there's something going on, but they're scared to say anything, they're scared to approach you. And we all just get more and more in our little boxes. So, you know.
Jonathan Hermida (52:57)
Yeah. Yeah, that's the irony. We want to be feel close to people. We want others to see us, but then because we're afraid we close off and because we close off, others pick up on that and therefore,
Alan Seale (53:06)
Yeah.
Jonathan Hermida (53:07)
feel distant from us and don't come closer. And so it creates this
Alan Seale (53:10)
Yeah.
Jonathan Hermida (53:11)
perpetual vicious cycle, for folks.
Alan Seale (53:13)
Yeah.
Alan Seale (53:14)
Yeah. Mm.
Jonathan Hermida (53:16)
You mentioned conscious living and that being a big sort of focus for you right now in your life. You spoke to aspects of it, but what what is conscious living for you? What does that mean for you?
Alan Seale (53:26)
Living with const with ever expanding awareness on lots of levels, inner and outer senses. of being aware that there's whatever your worldview is, there's always the next larger one. That yeah, awareness is just to me the most important thing for all of us. it's our biggest assignment.
Alan Seale (53:56)
And listening, learning to listen on a thousand levels, learning to sense what's going on here in the space, what's the energy in the room when you walk in? We all feel that, our bodies feel that. But we've been so conditioned to cut that off and to feel something in the body, but say, soldier on, keep on pushing anyway. This is my assignment here. This is what I'm supposed to do, or this is what they expect of me, or
Alan Seale (54:26)
Whether that's a family member or the boss, it's we get locked into that instead of just being able to say, Hmm, it's not quite there's something here. Can we just talk about this? To be able to
Alan Seale (54:44)
Bring the elephant in the room out sensitively with awareness of, but what is it that's desperately asking to be seen? it's it's just awareness and awareness that stretches beyond the rational. it's very much about understanding the intuitive mind as the larger mind, and that the intellectual mind, the rational mind is just one small part of that.
Alan Seale (55:13)
much larger intuitive mind. And the more we are moving through the world from the intuitive mind, from the heart center mind, the more we are reaching out into the energy field around us and gathering information all the time. Heart math has given us the great science behind that. And to help us understand that it's the heart intelligence, the intuitive intelligence, that can find what's going on in the field and know what to pay attention to. I
Alan Seale (55:42)
It also took me to that awareness when in in at least when I was in the coach training as a student in coach training, they would always say the client has all the answers. And I began to realize we're doing a huge disservice to our clients to expect them to have all the answers. They have the technology within them to find the answers in the energy field. But that answer is not necessarily in here. And so
Alan Seale (56:10)
That's a huge liberation to me that it's not like I'm supposed to somehow know what the answer
Jonathan Hermida (56:15)
Yeah.
Alan Seale (56:16)
is. I haven't a clue. But the answer or the clue that I need is in the energy field of the situation. Not even necessarily the energy field around me. It's in the energy field of what's happening. So the more we can open and be aware of the energy within, the bigger picture of what's there. Just pay attention. There are signs and signals everywhere.
Alan Seale (56:39)
But you have to be paying attention.
Jonathan Hermida (56:41)
So true. It's so true. As you sense yourself into the energy field, the greater energy field of our society right now, what is your sense of what's wanting to happen collectively for us right now?
Alan Seale (56:55)
For us to come home to ourselves. and then to come home to who we are. It's coming back to those questions: who do we choose to begin? Who do we choose to be together? answering those questions from a much deeper place, not from a what are we gonna get done place, not from where's our power place. it's also to be aware that what's happening right now is a part.
Alan Seale (57:24)
Of an enormous arc of human civilization. It's not the end. It's really difficult right now. Things are a mess. The world the the global order is completely coming apart, largely due to actions from the United States. And that's painful to be in right now and to watch every day the next thing be dismantled. And yet.
Alan Seale (57:53)
There is a part of me also that realizes this I I I I have a faith, a strong faith, that things happen for a reason. We don't understand them at the time, but it there's some reason why this is going on. And there's a reason why it all needs to be broken down now. In in 16, when Trump was first elected, I started writing about the Great Breaking Open. And I just keep talking about that because it's like
Alan Seale (58:21)
Everything is breaking open. And when it's breaking open, that's a good thing because now we can see to the core and see what is the truth here. When it's carefully wrapped up, all we can see is the surface. So it's a messy time and it's a scary time. And it's I admit that there are moments when I say, Couldn't you just waited another 20 years when I wouldn't be here anymore? You know, it's like just did it have to happen now? But here we are, you know, and
Jonathan Hermida (58:43)
Nope. Yeah. Here we are.
Alan Seale (58:51)
yeah, I I I I'm I this summer I heard Carrie Walsh Jennings, who was the Olympic gold winter for beach volleyball volleyball. I heard her speak at Chautauqua, and she made one statement that stuck with me. She said, I believe we are all born into the generation we are suited for. And there it is. We're here because we're the ones who are supposed to be here right now. And
Alan Seale (59:21)
So pay attention. What are these times asking you for? Say yes. yeah. And that's I sometimes people ask me, well, where's is there space for what do I want? When we say the question is what wants to happen. so yes, there is space for what do I want, yet it's within the context of what wants to happen. So here's what wants to happen. Now what do I want within that?
Alan Seale (59:51)
But I c I can say yes or no to a request, but I need to honor the bigger picture of here's what's trying to happen. And things are breaking open in our world, let them break open, but pay attention to what they're showing us.
Jonathan Hermida (01:00:09)
Yeah. And what the greater
Alan Seale (01:00:10)
There it is.
Jonathan Hermida (01:00:11)
opportunity is, 'cause there's always, always, always an opportunity.
Alan Seale (01:00:13)
There's always a
Alan Seale (01:00:14)
next a problem is not something to be solved. It's a message to be listened to. The breaking open is trying to show us a new path, another path, a different way. And we won't see ten steps down the path. We may only see just half of the first step. But take that first step. As you take that step, the next one will light up.
Jonathan Hermida (01:00:40)
Yeah, that's exactly right. And that is conscious living.
Alan Seale (01:00:43)
That is conscious living, that is conscious living. It's paying attention.
Jonathan Hermida (01:00:50)
As we begin and wrapping up this conversation, is there anything that we haven't explored that would be helpful to share? Something that is still top of mind for you?
Alan Seale (01:00:58)
We we've covered a lot of ground.
Alan Seale (01:01:03)
yeah.
Jonathan Hermida (01:01:04)
We really have.
Alan Seale (01:01:05)
Yeah, it's no, it's been it's been a lot of fun to just wander with you and see where we go. and and have this conversation. So thank you for that opportunity. I think if there was a message to leave, it's just
Alan Seale (01:01:21)
Open your heart and listen from there and look and watch and witness and keep breathing, taking a step back with everything that happens. Just take a step back. What's it asking me to notice? What am I being asked to pay attention to right now? If we just take that step in the world, we'll already start to follow what's trying to happen.
Jonathan Hermida (01:01:50)
I can think of no better way to end this conversation. Alan,
Alan Seale (01:01:53)
Ha ha.
Jonathan Hermida (01:01:54)
thank you so much for being the transformational presence that you have been for all these decades, all the various lives that you've touched, you know, how deep you've gone into this work and how you continue spreading that message to so many that that need it. So thank you. Thank you for sharing your time and your wisdom with us here.
Alan Seale (01:02:12)
Thank you very much for the invitation and thank you for what you are bringing to the world through this series. So thanks very much.
Jonathan Hermida (01:02:19)
Thanks, Alan.
Alan Seale (01:02:43)
Jonathan, are we done? Are we should I leave?
Alan Seale (01:02:48)
Yes, sir.